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| Non-Americans: Who has your vote? |
| McCain |
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14% |
[ 3 ] |
| Obama |
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85% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 21 |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Its just an anecdote... |
That is right: just an anecdote. An anecdote that probably looks especially optimistic in light of how much better B. Clinton's govt looks retrospectively, from today's rabidly anti-W. Bush vantage point.
I have my own anecdote: it involves being very self-righteously lectured by two Canadian women on the alleged insincerity of the Clintons' marriage and especially their outrage over B. Clinton's infidelities, etc., etc. This very emotional lecture went on and on and on, until I excused myself and left the party. This was before Yugoslavia, incidentally. And this, of course, falls within Canadian norms. So no surprises whatsoever.
You cannot, in any case, simply assert "People generally loved B. Clinton." It may help you make the case you want to make now, with respect to B. Obama, but it flies in the face of the way "the rest of the world" treated B. Clinton in 1999.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:20 am; edited 3 times in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Re: If the World Could Vote |
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This one's more interesting as you can see it country by country:
http://www.economist.com/vote2008/
McCain so far has Georgia, and Moldova. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| Its just an anecdote... |
That is right: just an anecdote. An anecdote that probably looks especially optimistic in light of how much better B. Clinton's govt looks retrospectively, from today's rabidly anti-W. Bush vantage point.
I have my own anecdote: it involves being very self-righteously lectured by two Canadian women on the alleged insincerity of the Clintons' marriage and especially their outrage over B. Clinton's infidelities, etc., etc. This very emotional lecture went on and on and on, until I excused myself and left the party. This was before Yugoslavia, incidentally.
You cannot simply assert "People generally loved B. Clinton." It may help you make the case you want to make now, with respect to B. Obama, but it flies in the face of the way "the rest of the world" treated B. Clinton in 1999. |
thanks for quoting the first half sentence of my post and then misquoting me later. it speaks to a certain desperation.
your anecdote involves again two randoms. mine involves, you know, everyone i know. people do generally resent america to an extent but clinton was by no means as unpopular as bush, by a long shot. would u say generally from ur experience in 1999 that clinton was as unpopular as bush is now?
again this might be an irish thing, but all i remember is people being amazed that he was getting done for sleeping around. JFK the last president truly popular in Ireland(my mom still has a scrapbook) slept around. people knew this. the pm of ireland all through the 90s was divorced and had various affairs. this is not the kind of thing that will make you unpopular in ireland..or indeed any other european country as far as i know. it just adds to your lad credentials.
Clinton took 3 visits to ireland, helped broker the good friday agreement and is credited with being a major player in the current lasting peace in northern ireland. So you know what? I can safely say the man was pretty popular and still is in ireland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1065913.stm |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Not exactly David Quinn's position. But such is life, JMO...
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In Ireland, anti-Americanism is rife but most of us pretend it's only President Bush we dislike. In support of this, we point out that we loved Bill Clinton. That's true but it's only slightly persuasive. We loved him for a number of reasons that softened our normal anti-Americanism.
First, he was a Democrat and Irish people always prefer Democrats to Republicans (the American variety, that is). Second, he was a charmer and we Irish have always been suckers for a charmer. Third, he made a big contribution to the Peace Process.
In truth, our infatuation with Clinton was really an aberration in our general attitude towards America and its leaders. We may hate Bush II, but we didn't have much time for Bush I either. We loathed Reagan, although not with the intensity of feeling we reserve for Bush II.
We didn't really have any opinion about Jimmy Carter or Gerald Ford. We didn't like Richard Nixon and those who had an opinion about Lyndon Baines Johnson detested him over Vietnam (despite him being a Democrat).
Of course, we absolutely revered JFK but I'm not sure if that counts. For a start, he had an unfair advantage over his successors in that he was the first Irish Catholic president of the United States.
In addition, the 1960s had not yet got into full swing when he died. It was the 1960s and the Vietnam war that changed many people's opinion of America. Before then, most people thought the US was mostly a force for good in the world. Now too many people think it is a menace. Vietnam convinced a lot of us that America is the world's great imperialist rather than the defender of democracy.
If John Kennedy came back to Ireland today, thousands would welcome him but thousands would also protest against him. After all, this is the man who tried to overthrow Fidel Castro who is beloved of the Irish left. He is also the man who put American troops into Vietnam and that would be a big black mark against him. Furthermore, he would be condemned for bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war over the Cuban missile crisis.
So, are we anti-American? The answer has to be Yes if our general attitude to US presidents since Kennedy is anything to go by. In the main our feelings for them have ranged from indifference to outright hatred. We are no longer inclined to be well-disposed towards American heads of state. We are all rebels now.
Contrast this with our attitude to other world leaders. When is the last time you heard an Irish person condemning that little thug Fidel Castro? Or any one of a number of Chinese leaders? Or, in the past, any leader of the Soviet Union? Where were the mass demonstrations against any of this gallery of villains, tyrants and rogues?
Instead we like to spare our spleen for America and the reason for this is that we are, at bottom, anti-American. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Speaking of Bill Clinton, I wonder how many Irish people will buy his autobiography and, more to the point, how many will actually read it? It is been mostly lambasted by the critics even in the liberal press which seems appalled at his narcissism... |
Independent |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Not exactly David Quinn's position. But such is life, JMO...
| Quote: |
In Ireland, anti-Americanism is rife but most of us pretend it's only President Bush we dislike. In support of this, we point out that we loved Bill Clinton. That's true but it's only slightly persuasive. We loved him for a number of reasons that softened our normal anti-Americanism.
First, he was a Democrat and Irish people always prefer Democrats to Republicans (the American variety, that is). Second, he was a charmer and we Irish have always been suckers for a charmer. Third, he made a big contribution to the Peace Process.
In truth, our infatuation with Clinton was really an aberration in our general attitude towards America and its leaders. We may hate Bush II, but we didn't have much time for Bush I either. We loathed Reagan, although not with the intensity of feeling we reserve for Bush II.
We didn't really have any opinion about Jimmy Carter or Gerald Ford. We didn't like Richard Nixon and those who had an opinion about Lyndon Baines Johnson detested him over Vietnam (despite him being a Democrat).
Of course, we absolutely revered JFK but I'm not sure if that counts. For a start, he had an unfair advantage over his successors in that he was the first Irish Catholic president of the United States.
In addition, the 1960s had not yet got into full swing when he died. It was the 1960s and the Vietnam war that changed many people's opinion of America. Before then, most people thought the US was mostly a force for good in the world. Now too many people think it is a menace. Vietnam convinced a lot of us that America is the world's great imperialist rather than the defender of democracy.
If John Kennedy came back to Ireland today, thousands would welcome him but thousands would also protest against him. After all, this is the man who tried to overthrow Fidel Castro who is beloved of the Irish left. He is also the man who put American troops into Vietnam and that would be a big black mark against him. Furthermore, he would be condemned for bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war over the Cuban missile crisis.
So, are we anti-American? The answer has to be Yes if our general attitude to US presidents since Kennedy is anything to go by. In the main our feelings for them have ranged from indifference to outright hatred. We are no longer inclined to be well-disposed towards American heads of state. We are all rebels now.
Contrast this with our attitude to other world leaders. When is the last time you heard an Irish person condemning that little thug Fidel Castro? Or any one of a number of Chinese leaders? Or, in the past, any leader of the Soviet Union? Where were the mass demonstrations against any of this gallery of villains, tyrants and rogues?
Instead we like to spare our spleen for America and the reason for this is that we are, at bottom, anti-American. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Speaking of Bill Clinton, I wonder how many Irish people will buy his autobiography and, more to the point, how many will actually read it? It is been mostly lambasted by the critics even in the liberal press which seems appalled at his narcissism... |
Independent |
did you read this? Or this your way of admitting your wrong? I bolded the parts where he said exactly what i just said.
I would disagree with his comments JFK coming. 100s of thousands to a million would come, maybe thousands would demonstrate. he underestimates my parents generation and the ones that surround it. he overestimates the irish left. im not even sure if jfk technically put troops in vietnam but its been a while since i studied it,,and in spirit maybe he did.
I agree that there should be more demonstrations against villains around the world.
But again as I said and I have no idea why you dispute this, whilst a section of irish people do resent america, Clinton was and is popular there. For the exact same reasons he listed.
If you read that paper you would know its called the Irish independent although more commonly called the indo..link it as either of those. I read it basically every day as well as the sunday independent and have read many a david quinn article. He makes alot of good points but he does tend to over estimate leftism in ireland imo. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I read the article. Yes, it supports my assertion that the picture you paint of B. Clinton's popularity in Ireland is misleading on Ireland's views toward America or as I said, yours is "not exactly David Quinn's position." Transparent effort to conceal deeply-entrenched antiAmericanism -- just like, to cite another example, another poster's claims that he is not antiAmerican because, see?, he likes NASA. And finally, yes, JFK, long a member of the pro-intervention Catholic lobby group "American Friends of Vietnam" and a fan of and believer in The Ugly American, created a formal military command, MACV, dispatched Special-Forces troops to South Vietnam in the thousands, and the number grew every few months, and, during the Buddhist Crisis, tacitly signaled his administration's approval of the South Vietnamese officer corps's coup in 1963 -- all crucial steps in Americanizing the Vietnam War.
You should not retrospectively romanticize JFK or B. Clinton, JMO, just to prove you do not hold antiAmerican views. And, in any case, you have only countered my evidence that many all over the world rabidly compared B. Clinton to Hitler in 1999 just as many all over the world rabidly compared W. Bush to Hitler after Iraq with "I know some people," "my parents' generation," and other anecdotes -- all appeals to your own authority.
I will return to those who responded to the original article: all of those smug, elitist antiAmerican Europeans, self-styled "citizens of the world," who claim to stand above nation-states, which they dismiss with an imperious wave of the hand, and who wish to shame or blackmail us into electing who they deign to tell us to elect can choke on the election -- however it turns out.
And, again, should B. Obama win, we will certainly hear this impotent-except-in-the-world-of-the-press mob call him "Hitler," too, sooner or later -- especially with respect to Israel and Pakistan, I predict.
Or possibly the Sudan...
| Quote: |
| Stop the Genocide in Darfur: As president, Obama will take immediate steps to end the genocide in Darfur by increasing pressure on the Sudanese and pressure the government to halt the killing and stop impeding the deployment of a robust international force. He and Joe Biden will hold the government in Khartoum accountable for abiding by its commitments under the Comprehensive Peace Accord that ended the 30 year conflict between the north and south. Obama worked with Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS) to pass the Darfur Peace and Accountability Act in 2006 [my emphasis]. |
Sounds like "intervention" to me. Sounds like intervention in spite of Beijing's veto power in the UN. Therefore, sounds like non-UN-sanctioned intervention, if not unilateral intervention. He will get into this tar-baby, then, and it will prove far more nightmarish than Somalia, far less responsive to external stabilization efforts than South Vietnam, and sooner or latter, JMO, "the people of the world/citizens of the world" (AKA smug, leftist Europeans and their very-eager-for-approval American following) will call B. Obama "Hitler." |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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There is something wrong with you. All I said was that Bill Clinton was and is popular in Ireland. The article you quoted agreed with me. You have not refuted that point but instead went off on a tangent. I suppose I can make a few points on said tangent.
thanks for the vietnam info btw..always interesting
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Yes, it supports my assertion that the picture you paint of B. Clinton's popularity in Ireland is misleading on Ireland's views toward America or as I said, yours is "not exactly David Quinn's position
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as i said i was only asserting clintons popularity..i mentioned that irish people tend to resent america.
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| You should not retrospectively romanticize JFK or B. Clinton, JMO, just to prove you do not hold antiAmerican views. |
I didn't realise I have anything to prove. I never lived during JFKs time but i did like clinton. i didn't like him so as to prove myself not to be anti american. if u think in those terms..again there is something wrong with you. bitterness like that can not be good for you.
does liking brian westbrook also mean i am just trying to fool ppl about my anti americanism also..who knew? better scratch all my american artists off my i tunes..im obviously just a poser..probably an elitist one.
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| And, in any case, you have only countered my evidence that many all over the world rabidly compared B. Clinton to Hitler in 1999 just as many all over the world rabidly compared W. Bush to Hitler after Iraq with "I know some people," "my parents' generation," and other anecdotes -- all appeals to your own authority. |
degree. everybody hates bush. significantly less people hated clinton. in ireland orders of magnitude less. I think that was shown in the very article you quoted, where it was admitted that irish people like clinton.
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| I will return to those who responded to the original article: all of those smug, elitist antiAmerican Europeans, self-styled "citizens of the world," who claim to stand above nation-states, which they dismiss with an imperious wave of the hand, and who wish to shame or blackmail us into electing who they deign to tell us to elect can choke on the election -- however it turns out. |
again, there is something wrong with you. why do you care? smug and elitist..my my.
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| And, again, should B. Obama win, we will certainly hear this impotent-except-in-the-world-of-the-press mob call him "Hitler, |
possibly..seeing as he is a charismatic young man who looks like a bit of a smooth talker and has that nice air, then maybe he has a better chance.
you could elect anyone and he would be called hitler by sections of the world..i wouldn't let it get me down if i were u ..
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| sooner or latter, JMO, "the people of the world/citizens of the world" (AKA smug, leftist Europeans and their very-eager-for-approval American following) will call B. Obama "Hitler. |
have you been to europe? i've never been to the states but i assumed not everybody was a gun toting redneck who hates books and loves jesus. i think this election is making you think in black and white too much goph..its not good for ya. relax. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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"Less people hated B. Clinton." Or, as Big_Bird essentializes, "a lesser evil." I guess I can settle for that. Sounds about right, in fact. But hearing Europeans call American leaders "Hitler" does make me question those Europeans: do they forget that they produced the prototype -- not to mention the worst forms of "evil" humanity has ever seen, including the British in India (and how about the British in Ireland, JMO?), the Holocaust, the Belgians in the Congo, etc.?
I will nevertheless not waste more time exchanging views with you, yet another smug, condescending European who now wants to attack my position by assigning me mental illness -- "there is something wrong with you" -- thus, it is hoped, undermining it entirely. It is impolite. And it reeks of desperate knowledge/power manipulations, to say the least -- but it is par for the course for how smug, condescending Europeans like you deal with Americans and others who do not do as they are told. So that is correct: smug, condescending elitists. I could rest my case with your dismissive "there is something wrong with you," JMO.
And I am relaxed. I have in fact already cast my vote in an early, mail-in ballot. We shall see what we shall see. I have already stated my position on this election before: first choice, H. Clinton, failed to survive the primaries; J. McCain represents my second choice; but although I will not contribute to voting B. Obama into office, I can live with a possible Obama Administration, too. As far as I am concerned, I "lost" this election when the Democrats nominated B. Obama. It is what it is.
Go back to your elitist editorializing on how Americans ought to vote if they want people like you to like them, you claim, as if it were ever once true, "again." ROFL. It has not been true since at least as early as G. Greene, JMO -- and that has to do with, I recall, a very jealous and bitter old man hating to see the younger, more virile guy steal his girl than anything else.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:15 am; edited 5 times in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| and that has to do with, I recall, a very jealous and bitter old man hating to see the younger, more virile guy steal his girl than anything else. |
Kind of reminds me of the sexual psychology underlying the last couple of Woody Allen movies I've seen. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
"Less people hated B. Clinton." Or, as Big_Bird essentializes, "a lesser evil." I guess I can settle for that. Sounds about right, in fact. But hearing Europeans call American leaders "Hitler" does make me question those Europeans: do they forget that they produced the prototype -- not to mention the worst forms of "evil" humanity has ever seen, including the British in India (and how about the British in Ireland, JMO?), the Holocaust, the Belgians in the Congo, etc.?
I will nevertheless not waste more time exchanging views with you, yet another smug, condescending European who now wants to attack my position by assigning me mental illness -- "there is something wrong with you" -- thus, it is hoped, undermining it entirely. It is impolite. And it reeks of desperate knowledge/power manipulations, to say the least -- but it is par for the course for how smug, condescending Europeans like you deal with Americans and others who do not do as they are told. So that is correct: smug, condescending elitists. I could rest my case with your dismissive "there is something wrong with you," JMO.
And I am relaxed. I have in fact already cast my vote in an early, mail-in ballot. We shall see what we shall see. I have already stated my position on this election before: first choice, H. Clinton, failed to survive the primaries; J. McCain represents my second choice; but although I will not contribute to voting B. Obama into office, I can live with a possible Obama Administration, too. As far as I am concerned, I "lost" this election when the Democrats nominated B. Obama. It is what it is.
Go back to your elitist editorializing on how Americans ought to vote if they want people like you to like them, you claim, as if it were ever once true, "again." ROFL. It has not been true since at least as early as G. Greene, JMO -- and that has to do with, I recall, a very jealous and bitter old man hating to see the younger, more virile guy steal his girl than anything else. |
In other words, you agree with my original point..as in Bill Clinton was and is popular in Ireland. Never seen a man who went to more words to say "I'm wrong".
Your 'position' is essentially branding all europeans as smug and elitist because it suits you. That is not a position.
You are obviously not relaxed or you would not be threatening to come back at all the 'smug, elitists' who in fact do not even exist.
You seem to think that anyone who claims to like anything America is really just covering up their inner hatred of America.
So in short there is something wrong with you. I'm off to read a book and scoff at things. I suggest you go polish your gun and read your bible.
Oh, how I love pointless stereotypes. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| and that has to do with, I recall, a very jealous and bitter old man hating to see the younger, more virile guy steal his girl than anything else. |
Kind of reminds me of the sexual psychology underlying the last couple of Woody Allen movies I've seen. |
Yeah. Throw in "Cliff Stern's" superior attitude toward "Lester," another guy who steals a girl from someone Woody Allen has eyes for, in Crimes and Misdemeanors, my own favorite Woody Allen film, for good measure. Same attitude I have in mind, in any case. Even boasts a comparison to a famous fascist, no less.
Best character assassination ever... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher, why do you think the world overwhelmingly prefers Obama? |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Non-Americans: Who has your vote?
McCain
15% [ 3 ]
Obama
85% [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 20
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Obama: but really because of the "anyone but McBush" approach.
At least the Dems will handle the economy more resonsibily. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| and that has to do with, I recall, a very jealous and bitter old man hating to see the younger, more virile guy steal his girl than anything else. |
Kind of reminds me of the sexual psychology underlying the last couple of Woody Allen movies I've seen. |
oooh...I like woody allen movies. Oh wait, do I? Or am I just trying to cover up my latent anti-americanism? It's all very confusing. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Go back to your elitist editorializing on how Americans ought to vote if they want people like you to like them, you claim, as if it were ever once true, "again." ROFL. It has not been true since at least as early as G. Greene, JMO -- and that has to do with, I recall, a very jealous and bitter old man hating to see the younger, more virile guy steal his girl than anything else. |
I really don't understand how you don't see this. I made a comment that Clinton was quite popular in Ireland. You extrapolate from this the above. I never said how americans should vote, the poll question asked me how I would vote.
I apologise for saying "there is something wrong with you". I didn't mean you have a mental illness. I meant you are drawing big conclusions from very small statements in a very bitter way. I said Clinton was popular and I would vote for Obama, therefore in your eyes I'm telling Americans how they should vote.
I said Bush is less popular than Clinton, in your eyes I'm romanticizing Clinton. How do you draw this conclusion, I have no idea.
I think half the problem is that you don't actually address what I said. You draw one sentence or half a sentence from a post and only address that. You google an opinion piece from a newspaper you have obviously never read before and a journalist who likewise you have never read. I have, i know his leanings and my leanings and I know his opinion and mine are of equal value. We both lived through the times we were talking about and he only gave anecdotal evidence and hypothetical examples, just like me.
You use that as support for argument and mine..
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| That is right: just an anecdote |
Instead of actually addressing the point of my post you just google an article from the indo. An article which contains anecdotes just like mine.
I think you are in a place where Europeans are smug elitists telling you what to do and you are judging everything through that light. It is grating to be judged in this light for simply giving an opinion. It is also grating to have a simple statement of fact(Clinton was popular in Ireland) extended in to a broad argument. Why not just say, "fair enough, your right".
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| You should not retrospectively romanticize JFK or B. Clinton, JMO, just to prove you do not hold antiAmerican views. |
When i got up at 3am last night to get a drink of water and saw this sentence, I was pretty angry. Don't tell people what they are thinking. The implication that Europeans are anti american and only pretend(consciously or not) to like certain things to prove otherwise is ludicrous. Again you draw way too much from very small things.
I'm sorry for doing the same to you with the intent to hurt. I really think you should stop branding europeans as the smug elite. It doesn't help your argument. |
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