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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: Obama destroying McCain in "Global Electoral College |
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An economist feature:
http://www.economist.com/vote2008/index.cfm
Obama has over 8K electoral votes vs. McCain's 16. Ouch. |
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newteacher
Joined: 31 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Rofl, Georgia. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Like the UN General Assembly.
Americans ought not to care too much what the rest of the world thinks. The rest of the world isn't out to to give the US a fair deal
Not that voting for Obama is a bad thing but the rest of the world wants the US to elect someone who will take it and listen to the UN.
They will always support the more liberal candidate |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Americans ought not to care too much what the rest of the world thinks. |
A superpower indifferent from those it has power over? Seems unstable.
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| The rest of the world isn't out to to give the US a fair deal |
No, just a global financial order that uses as a base little green pieces of paper from the US as the means of all transactions amounting to a several trillion dollar gift to the American government and public. The financing of American military and consumer consumption via the hording of American securities. Nah. The world is totally harsh on you. Sometimes they say bad things. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Americans ought not to care too much what the rest of the world thinks. |
A superpower indifferent from those it has power over? Seems unstable.
| Quote: |
| The rest of the world isn't out to to give the US a fair deal |
No, just a global financial order that uses as a base little green pieces of paper from the US as the means of all transactions amounting to a several trillion dollar gift to the American government and public. The financing of American military and consumer consumption via the hording of American securities. Nah. The world is totally harsh on you. Sometimes they say bad things. |
IF they buy US securities it isn't cause they like the US.
See how South Koreans thought that Bush was worse than Kim Jong Il. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Americans ought not to care too much what the rest of the world thinks. |
A superpower indifferent from those it has power over? Seems unstable. |
The United States does not "have power over" "the rest of the world." This is silly. And yes, Joo is right: Americans ought to leave this "rest of the world" nonsense where they found it. For one thing, I doubt anyone out there in "the rest of the world" feels anything but pure malice towards the United States, its favorite scapegoat, since Graham Greene, if not earlier. Therefore I would not trust any of them one iota with respect to Americans' debating other Americans re: what is best for America today.
Who are we talking about, incidentally? Hugo Chavez or Imadinnerjacket? The Sudanese? The Russians? Oh, I remember: the Western and Northern Europeans, the good, mature people of the world whose days of wanton rape and pillage ended, and thus they know best.
No thanks, "rest of the world," whoever you are. Your vote in American politics is worth this: add US$1.00 to your vote and it would be worth US$1.00. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
IF they buy US securities it isn't cause they like the US.
See how South Koreans thought that Bush was worse than Kim Jong Il. |
They don't have to like the US to give it a "fair deal". And South Koreans were probably a tad freaked at the whole axis of evil thing (quickly followed by a war on one). |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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One is young charismatic and handsome, the other is very old and audibly whistles when he talks. I'm not sure what people expected.
Of course this vote means nothing, just like the espn page 2 poll i did earlier. Its just a bit of fun.
Or it could mean this..
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| I doubt anyone out there in "the rest of the world" feels anything but pure malice towards the United States |
people have an enormous power to see exactly what they want to see...pure malice.. wowee..i must be holding it deep inside. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The United States does not "have power over" "the rest of the world." This is silly. |
America has quite a lot of power over much of the world. This is why it is a "superpower". It can behave without any sanction, and is either the only or one of two states that can do this.
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| And yes, Joo is right: Americans ought to leave this "rest of the world" nonsense where they found it. For one thing, I doubt anyone out there in "the rest of the world" feels anything but pure malice towards the United States, its favorite scapegoat, since Graham Greene, if not earlier. Therefore I would not trust any of them one iota with respect to Americans' debating other Americans re: what is best for America today. |
The concern for American politics has little do with what is best for America but what -or who- is best for the world, which it apparently desires to lead (what with all the warnings to the various behaviours of different states tens of thousands of miles away from the US). And really, you think that there isn't "anyone out there in the rest of the world" who does not feel malice towards the US? Nonsense.
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| Who are we talking about, incidentally? Hugo Chavez or Imadinnerjacket? The Sudanese? The Russians? Oh, I remember: the Western and Northern Europeans, the good, mature people of the world whose days of wanton rape and pillage ended, and thus they know best. |
Well, since we're using straw men, I trust the good mature people of the Europe more than these people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wroj0FLvzs&eurl
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| No thanks, "rest of the world," whoever you are. Your vote in American politics is worth this: add US$1.00 to your vote and it would be worth US$1.00. |
And the contempt that the current government has shown to the rest of the world has been strongly noted and included into any perceptions of the US thus fueling your obsession with anti-Americanism. It is a cycle! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wroj0FLvzs&eurl |
Yes, that is right. That is how most of "the rest of the world" constructs "Americans." Thank you for reminding us of that. I also have sources like this one...
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More than 50 percent of Britons believe that polygamy is legal in the United States; in fact, it is illegal in all 50 states. Almost one-third of Britons believe that Americans who have not paid their hospital fees or insurance premiums are not entitled to emergency medical care; in fact, such treatment must be provided by law.
Seventy percent of Britons think the United States has done a worse job than the European Union in reducing carbon emissions since 2000; in fact, America's rate of growth of carbon emissions has decreased by almost ten percent since 2000, while that of the EU has increased by 2.3 percent.
Eighty percent of Britons believe that "from 1973 to 1990, the United States sold Saddam Hussein more than a quarter of his weapons." In fact, the United States sold just 0.46 percent of Saddam's arsenal to him; Russia, France, and China supplied 57 percent, 13 percent, and 12 percent, respectively.
The majority of Britons believe that since the Second World War, the United States has more often sided with non-Muslims than with Muslims. In fact, in 11 out of 12 major conflicts between Muslims and non-Muslims, Muslims and secular forces, or Arabs and non-Arabs, the United States has sided with Muslims and/or Arabs.
Indeed, a new opinion poll finds that British attitudes towards the United States are governed by ignorance of the facts on key issues such as crime, health care, and foreign policy. The survey was commissioned by America in the World, a London-based group that hopes to push back against rampant anti-Americanism in the United Kingdom by dispelling widely held myths about the United States.
But Britons are not the only Europeans who hold unbalanced views of the United States... |
PajamasMedia.com
If America wielded the kind of power you allege here, Nationalist China would have emerged as a powerful regional ally during and immediately after the Second World War, thus guiding all East Asia's postwar decolonization processes in a pro-American way; not only would the Bay of Pigs have toppled F. Castro's regime, but the Alliance for Progress would have rendered the Cold War over in Latin America and the Caribbean in the early 1960s; and the Shah and his successors would rule Iran today, thus serving as a strong pro-American beacon broadcasting throughout the entire Middle East.
None of these things passed.
In fact the only places where this massive American power you allege exists ever functioned were, gasp, in these terribly evil imperialist projects: we kept Britain and Russia afloat in the Second World War against the German onslaught; then we decided that war, both in the European and the East Asian Theaters. Next, we rebuilt Western Europe and Japan while containing Stalin to those parts of Eastern Europe he seized in the war's immediate aftermath. We established the Bretton Woods system and thus stabilized and promoted world trade. Finally, one minor success: we shielded Saudi Arabia and drove Saddam out of Kuwait in 1990-1991, even though Saddam and his govt failed to collapse in that war's aftermath as we had hoped and planned.
I remain undecided on whether we can judge our cultivating and backing European unity a long-term success. Too early to tell.
All the rest, especially from 1945 to the present, betrays not the American omnipotence you want to allege but rather it reveals an America that functions as just one more player in world affairs, competing and negotiating with others who play at least equally decisive roles in shaping regional if not world affairs to suit their own interests. What results is the net effect of this competition and negotiation. You, of course, fall into the fallacy of bitterly blaming America for all of it -- especially that which you deem "bad." And I do not expect to have much luck at all in correcting your thinking on this.
Most of "the rest of the world" seems hopelessly eager to embrace the antiAmerican stereotype. Why should I expect you or others on this messageboard to stand outside that pattern? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, that is right. That is how most of "the rest of the world" constructs "Americans." Thank you for reminding us of that. |
Most? Dude. That is nuts. Anyways, I prefaced it by saying I was using a strawman.
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| If America wielded the kind of power you allege here blah blah. |
No, I made no reference to the scale she has but merely that she is a superpower. It can't control everything. But it can behave with a freedom that most every other country can't, often for reasons of the US. This can be good if the US behaves responsibly, but to do so she would need to listen to the "rest of the world". The last 8 years have been bad.
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| In fact the only places where this massive American power... |
Camon.
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| you allege exists ever functioned were, gasp, in these terribly evil imperialist projects: we kept Britain and Russia afloat in the Second World War against the German onslaught; then we decided that war, both in the European and the East Asian Theaters. Next, we rebuilt Western Europe and Japan while containing Stalin to those parts of East Europe he seized. |
Etc etc. I am aware of the good, and the bad. The United States has been a force for good and has at other times slaughtered people for no good reason. On balance, I'm glad the current system was molded by the US. Though to speak of the bad without a complimentary handjob of thanks for the good will inspire calls of anti-Americanism from some, won't it?
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| All the rest betrays not the American omnipotence you want to allege |
...I'm a few words in my mouth away from using my first emoticon ever.
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| but rather it reveals an America that functions as just one more player in world affairs, competing and negotiating with others who play at least equally decisive roles in shaping regional if not world affairs to suit their own interests. |
Yes. The United States is equal in power to all others. The superpower thing is just a media construct.
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| You, of course, fall into the fallacy of bitterly blaming America for all of it -- especially that which you deem "bad." |
Damnit. Gotta do it.
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| And I do not expect to have much luck at all in correcting your thinking on this. |
What do I blame America for? Well, before I get another serveral paragraphs of bullshit, I'll tell you. I strongly opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The torture thing really bothered me, but mostly because I expect more of your country. But do I wake up in the morning, stub my toe and curse AmeriKKa? No. I don't. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| The superpower thing is just a...construct. |
Exactly. And, cheap propaganda points notwithstanding, not a very helpful one when it comes to apprehending and evaluating world affairs as an adult.
And, again, I am sorry to hear that you blame "America" for the W. Bush Administration. This reduces the entire country and its complex and varied culture to a single president whose govt and policies represent approximately half the electorate's interests, interests which changed following 9/11, interests which have shifted yet again following the Iraqi War and today's financial crisis. Do you really need me to point this out?
Whether you do or not, I will summarize your thinking on "America": hopelessly simplistic. It seems that you and "the rest of the world" too eagerly resort to blunt stereotyping tools, tools similar to those wielded by those earlier anti-X propagandists who attacked, say, the Ottoman Empire via "the Terrible Turk" stereotype, or, say, the Spanish via "the Black Legend." Nice propaganda. Bad adult analysis, however.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not Canadian so I have no idea if that represents normal Canadian opinion. I do know that David Quinn's opinion whilst interesting is just that, his opinion. Hardly proof that Ireland is intrinsically anti-american, or we are consumed by pure malice for America. Good for you, for not getting the paper's name wrong.
People around the world, do hate America. Most do not. That is my opinion. I back it up with this.
If the rest of the world really did hold 'pure malice' then you would literally be not able to leave your country without being murdered. That would be malice in its purest form. I would be positively devastated if any of my family in the states(boston) or my yank friends here were killed.
I look forward to you quoting just one sentence of this reply and responding to maybe half of that sentence. Your form of debate is disingenuous.
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| Whether you do or not, I will summarize your thinking on "America": hopelessly simplistic. It seems that you and "the rest of the world" too eagerly resort to blunt stereotyping tools, |
Coming from the man, who branded all Europeans as smug and elitist, this is rich.
Also the man who said implied that liking american things is a ruse to cover your anti-americanism. It is bewildering, that you cannot see yourself doing the same thig here.
Last edited by JMO on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Really? You're trying to drag me into a debate about if the term 'superpower' is appropriate?
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| And, again, I am sorry to hear that you blame "America" for the W. Bush Administration. This reduces the entire country and its complex and varied culture to a single president whose govt and policies represent approximately half the electorate's interests, interests which changed following 9/11. Do you really need me to point this out? |
Well, I only blame "America" in the way you credit "we" with:
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| we kept Britain and Russia afloat in the Second World War against the German onslaught; then we decided that war, both in the European and the East Asian Theaters. Next, we rebuilt Western Europe and Japan while containing Stalin to those parts of Eastern Europe he seized in the war's immediate aftermath. We established the Bretton Woods system and thus stabilized and promoted world trade. Finally, one minor success: we shielded Saudi Arabia and drove Saddam out of Kuwait in 1990-1991, even though Saddam and his govt failed to collapse in that war's aftermath as we had hoped and planned. |
Though, of course I was making specific reference to the last 8 years, which as an adult you should understand to mean the Bush years, or more specifically the Bush administration.
You're projecting an entirely foreign worldview onto me.
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| Whether you do or not, I will summarize your thinking on "America": hopelessly simplistic. It seems that you and "the rest of the world" now use such blunt stereotyping tools as those who once attacked the Ottoman Empire via "the Terrible Turk" or the Spanish via "the Black Legend." Nice propaganda. Bad adult analysis, however. |
Jesus dude. You are wound tighter than a spring tonight. |
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