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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| That doesn't address US motives. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| The 1953 coup had nothing to with the cold war. It was about protecting oil profits. |
Retrospective, formulaic, and simplistic Marxist thinking. Further, you repeat this as propaganda-hysteria-mantra without even knowing the facts of the matter. "It's all about oil!"
And the fact of the matter is, the Eisenhower Administration, rightly or wrongly, perceived a Communist threat in the form of M. Mossadeq's anti-British attitudes and actions, his tolerance and flirtation with the Tudeh Party, and the British govt very intensively cultivated this from November 1952 through March 1953, when the President directed CIA to overthrow the Prime Minister.
Further, Eisenhower's papers clearly show his preoccupation with possible Communist coups against, in his view, irresponsible leaders such as Mossadeq, in light of Czechoslovakia and other Soviet covert political operations. He voiced these concerns to his press secretary, among others. Do you deny that the Soviets overthrew the Czechoslovakian govt and installed their own people in 1948?
Do not backstream/read history backwards please. In 1952 and 1953, the Eisenhower Administration saw a Communist threat in Iran. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| That doesn't address US motives. |
So Ike, motivated by his perception of Mossadeq as a communist, was justified in overthrowing him. Even though that perception was incorrect. Even though that overthrow set in motion the events of 1979.
But Carter, motivated by his perception of Khomenei as "an angel", and a desire to bring freedom to the Iranians, was wrong in both motivation and deed.
It's hard to argue with double speak like that. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Retrospective, formulaic, and simplistic Marxist thinking. |
Good to see your rodentia face popping back in. Care to explain to Joo how his simplistic Marxist views that blame Carter for Khomenei, the Iran-Iraq War, and 9-11 are wrong? Or is your critique of American "hegemony" only applied to the Presidents you like? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| So Ike, motivated by his perception of Mossadeq as a communist, was justified in overthrowing him. Even though that perception was incorrect. |
Justified from what perspective? From 1953? From a time when the future appeared unclear and menacing? Or from 2008? Where you can smugly tell them what we now know and therefore lecture them on what they should have done?
And whoever it was that drilled into your head that "explanation" and "justification" are the same was an idiot.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Even though that overthrow set in motion the events of 1979. |
Again, simplistic thinking. You repeat the allegation-driven discourse, no more no less.
A lot happened between 1953 and 1979. You ignore it. You ignore all Iranian ground conditions and actors. You ignore all non-American conditions and actors.
The Americans (and perhaps grudging recognition that the British exist in this somewhere, but not where "complicity" might be involved, of course, because, as we know, Europeans are wise and socialistic, etc.) overthrew M. Mossadeq. This caused and justified 1979 -- and now 9/11, too? This in any case indeed caused and justified all that is wrong in the Middle East today. Oh yeah: and Israel, which is little more than yet another American puppet. And voila: there are your answers to all the world's problems: it is the Americans.
As far as the rest of your questions, reduce them to simple and open-ended questions, and not the usual power-game baiting-style questions you have lobbed my way, and I shall answer them in good faith. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
The first way to do it is to bring down your enemies - not beat up on your firends. |
I guess hypocrisy isn't one of Carter's strengths.
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How exactly will Iran do that? Somethings are just to far ahead of the game. Let Iran try. This is a game that the US will win. |
While I hope you are right, I believe your optimism is a little misplaced. On paper, AQ is not that strong. No air force, no navy, no tax base. But they manage to hit the US pretty hard. Since Vietnam we've seen how the rules of engagement have changed. The biggest, fastest, and strongest isn't always the winner.
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| The mideast after 1979 was way different than it was in 1978. |
I heard you before. But the seeds of change were planted well before.
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Besides NK nuclear program hasn't turned out to be a huge game changer. The map of Asia is the same. |
Why is one a game changer and not the other?
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Sure I won't defend Bush's eco policies but at least Bush goes after enemies instead of calling them saints and Ghandi and holy man.
He messes up a lot but he sees the enemy for what they are. |
His relationship with the Saudis might prove otherwise.
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| In your eyes or theirs? |
Well if they are that crazy -near Al Qaeda then they ought to be taken down. That means the US really does need RFG. |
You think they are crazy for believing in their cause and not America's? Don't expect the world to wear the same ideological glasses as you. That is what's crazy.
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| His general "blame the liberals" pov makes him a conservative moonbat. |
That doesn't make him a moonbat though it is silly. And it is probably so that one of the reasons that Bin Laden hates the US is us pop culture. |
If he was making the same argument from the left vis a vis the right you'd call him a moonbat. And Gopher would call him a Marxist. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Even though that overthrow set in motion the events of 1979. |
Again, simplistic thinking. You repeat the allegation-driven discourse, no more no less. |
Explain that to Joo.
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| As far as the rest of your questions, reduce them to simple and open-ended questions, and not the usual power-game baiting-style questions you have lobbed my way, and I shall answer them in good faith. |
Oh the irony. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Very well, Huffdaddy. I offered; you declined. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Very well, Huffdaddy. I offered; you declined. |
Fail.
Now bugger off. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Guess you do not have any bona fide issues to place on the table, then. Noted. But please, if you plan to cite historical examples, get your facts right -- and be sure you have all of the facts and not just the ones convenient for prosecuting the Great Satan.
Anyone, you know, can ape W. Blum, S. Kinzer, or C. Johnson. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgbOxDX6DE
http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/1953coup.html
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The Iranian people never forgave the Shah for the 1953 illegitimate and bloody coup d'�tat against the Iranian national hero, Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh and his nationalist cabinet. The Iranian people deeply suffered under the Shah's dictatorship, corruption, phony elections, heavy censorship on the public media, torture and execution of thousands of dissenters until the 1979 Revolution. |
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/8/25/50_years_after_the_cias_first
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| STEPHEN KINZER: The goal of our coup was to overthrow Prime Minister Mossadegh and place the Shah back in his throne. And we succeeded in doing that. But from the perspective of decades of history, we can look back and ask whether what seemed like a success really was a success. The Shah whom we brought back to power became a harsh dictator. His repression set off the revolution of 1979, and that revolution brought to power a group of fanatic anti-Western, religious clerics whose government sponsored acts of terror against American targets, and that government also inspired fundamentalists in other countries including next door, Afghanistan, where the Taliban came to power and gave sanctuary to Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. So, I think you can--while it�s always difficult to draw direct cause and effect lines in history--see that this episode has had shattering effects for the United States. And let�s consider one other of the many negative affects this has had. When we overthrew a democratic government in Iran 50 years ago, we sent a message, not only to Iran, but throughout the entire Middle East. That message was that the United States does not support democratic governments and the United States prefers strong-man rule that will guarantee us access to oil. And that pushed an entire generation of leaders in the Middle East away from democracy. We sent the opposite message that we should have sent. Instead of sending the message that we wanted democracy, we sent a message that we wanted dictatorship in the Middle East, and a lot of people in the Middle East got that message very clearly and that helped to lead to the political trouble we face there today. |
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0501i.asp
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| When Iranians took U.S. officials hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran in 1979, Americans were mystified and angry, not being able to comprehend how Iranians could be so hateful toward U.S. officials, especially since the U.S. government had been so supportive of the shah of Iran for some 25 years. What the American people failed to realize is that the deep anger and hatred that the Iranian people had in 1979 against the U.S. government was rooted in a horrible, anti-democratic act that the U.S. government committed in 1953. That was the year the CIA secretly and surreptitiously ousted the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, a man named Mohammad Mossadegh, from power, followed by the U.S. government�s ardent support of the shah of Iran�s dictatorship for the next 25 years. |
http://newsmine.org/content.php?ol=coldwar-imperialism/iran53/british-iran-plan-in-1953-and-1979.txt
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| But a copy of the agency's secret history of the 1953 coup has surfaced, revealing the inner workings of a plot that set the stage for the Islamic revolution in 1979, and for a generation of anti-American hatred in one of the Middle East's most powerful countries. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Guess you do not have any bona fide issues to place on the table, then. |
Talking to yourself again, I see.
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| Noted. But please, if you plan to cite historical examples, get your facts right -- and be sure you have all of the facts and not just the ones convenient for prosecuting the Great Satan. |
You don't get it, do you?
1953-1979 = 26 years
1979-2001 = 22 years
So what is the statute of limitations on causality?
Why is Carter the Great Satan and not Ike? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Youtube and links you selectively Googled and then cherry-picked.
You are truly ignorant on this affair, Huffdaddy. Have you even skimmed any of the real literature? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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You don't get it do you?
Try taking a more even minded view of Joo's blaming Carter approach and tell me what you think of it. Or is a little nonpartisan credibility beyond you? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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What do I think of what? The Iranian coup? I have talked a little about it here. But I do not think you have read anything but the run-of-the-mill master-narrative: the allegation-driven, "American-complicity" trope.
As far as J. Carter's foreign policy goes, I agree with J. Kirkpatrick. |
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