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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
Why do children have to be taught patriotism? If patriotism is deliberately forced on young and impressionable minds (and I'm not talking about the Olympics or sports) then that seems to me to be a kind of brainwashing. I think that if a country IS good, then that will show through without having to reinforce it every day. But maybe I'm wrong. |
Maybe, maybe not. I don't think a pledge of allegience is problematic. I don't think its necessary either. I don't think that if a country IS good (whatever that means), that it thereby loses its goodness by having or not having a pledge of allegience.
In other words, the issue is really quite a non-issue. It does not pass the 'pissing-contest fodder' test. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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I hope a boy's classmate comes to school with a shirt that says, "John McCain eats the placenta of all babies born in Washington DC." On the back it would read "They make him strong".
I mean, if we're making outlandish claims on an 11 year old's t-shirt and using your son as a springboard for your fame, why not say something completely absurd? |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Maybe, maybe not. I don't think a pledge of allegience is problematic. I don't think its necessary either. I don't think that if a country IS good (whatever that means), that it thereby loses its goodness by having or not having a pledge of allegience.
In other words, the issue is really quite a non-issue. It does not pass the 'pissing-contest fodder' test. |
Not a urinating competition by any means. I have never lived in a country before where one is required, or even asked, to show patriotism. Especially children. I just don't understand it and was hoping that someone might explain it to me so that I could. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Maybe, maybe not. I don't think a pledge of allegience is problematic. I don't think its necessary either. I don't think that if a country IS good (whatever that means), that it thereby loses its goodness by having or not having a pledge of allegience.
In other words, the issue is really quite a non-issue. It does not pass the 'pissing-contest fodder' test. |
Not a urinating competition by any means. I have never lived in a country before where one is required, or even asked, to show patriotism. Especially children. I just don't understand it and was hoping that someone might explain it to me so that I could. |
Very well. I don't know about the dressing in red, white, and blue thing. Schools are run locally according to State guidelines. So that's well over 11,000 different school districts in the US alone. I do know that when I was a kid they used to tell us to wear green for St. Patrick's Day or red for Valentine's Day. There was no punishment if you didn't, but there tended to be some social pressure to do so.
Probably more controversial is the Pledge of Allegiance. This is an older tradition dating to the 19th Century. Perhaps the most controversial part about it is the "under God" part, which was added by President Eisenhower during the beginning of the Cold War. There was even a First Amendment case about it. But, the Supreme Court, knowing it was a hot-button issue, wriggled out of a decision by determining that the atheist father did not have proper standing to bring the suit, because his mother had legal custody over the child, Elk Grove Unified School Dist. v Newdow, 124 S. Ct. 2301 (2004). Our country thereby dodged a bullet and another needless conflict in the culture war. |
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oskinny1
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you!
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding patriotism in school, I taught at an elementary school in Texas. At one point the kids were being taught that song with the line "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free". At least 25% of the students were Mexican nationals.
I think America has done many great things, but teaching us overt blind patriotism has harmed us. Just look at how some are now attacking a man because his name sounds like someone else's who doesn't like the US. [/awkward sentence] |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Dad has just ensured that his kid will always be known in his elementary school for the wrong reasons--not because he's a good student, or a pleasure to have in class, or genuinely nice kid, or because he's bright...he may be all of these...but he won't be remembered for any of them. He's now the pariah.
What a childhood.
Wonder what's in store for middle school. Probably not reading, writing, and arithmetic.
Dad is such a tool. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I have never lived in a country before where one is required, or even asked, to show patriotism. Especially children. |
Welcome to Korea. You are living in a country where the flag is regularly displayed on holidays and the national anthem is played/sung at every formal occassion I've ever been to. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
Dad has just ensured that his kid will always be known in his elementary school for the wrong reasons--not because he's a good student, or a pleasure to have in class, or genuinely nice kid, or because he's bright...he may be all of these...but he won't be remembered for any of them. He's now the pariah.
What a childhood.
Wonder what's in store for middle school. Probably not reading, writing, and arithmetic.
Dad is such a tool. |
I mean what if someone wants to have a political rally at a middle school. Should that be allowed under the first amendment? Do the same rules that apply to adults who are not confined mostly to some building with thousands of other people. If you wore "I hate Obama" shirt at work, I am sure your supervisor may have a problem with it even if he were Republican. I think the father is encouraging ignorant type behavior and such a t-shirt is inflammatory. It is not a simply a t-shirt that states that the boy opposes Obama. It is a shirt that slanders Obama. I understand there are t-shirts that label Bush as a terrorist. It is one thing to wear such t-shirts outside of schools and another to wear them at schools.
Anyway, in America, the Communist Party is outlawed, so it is not really as if the 1st Amendment is respected, not that I support such a party.
However, as Kirk Douglas said they should have the right to exist. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyway, in America, the Communist Party is outlawed |
Where did you get that idea?
They've run candidates in many presidential races:
1924 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1928 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1932 - William Z. Foster & James W. Ford
1936 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1940 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1948 - no candidates, but supported Henry Wallace, the Progressive candidate
1952 - no candidates, but supported Vincent Hallinan, the Progressive candidate
1968 - Charlene Mitchell & Michael Zagarell
1972 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1976 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1980 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
1984 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
(Wiki) |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Anyway, in America, the Communist Party is outlawed |
Where did you get that idea?
They've run candidates in many presidential races:
1924 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1928 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1932 - William Z. Foster & James W. Ford
1936 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1940 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1948 - no candidates, but supported Henry Wallace, the Progressive candidate
1952 - no candidates, but supported Vincent Hallinan, the Progressive candidate
1968 - Charlene Mitchell & Michael Zagarell
1972 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1976 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1980 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
1984 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
(Wiki) |
I thought I read that somewhere, but I was mistaken. I just checked the communist website, and they only said that Marxism banned from being taught in some places in the U.S. If that is true, is that unconstitutional and a violation of the first amendment? There may not be any restrictions. I am not sure. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| Dad has just ensured that his kid will always be known in his elementary school for the wrong reasons--not because he's a good student, or a pleasure to have in class, or genuinely nice kid, or because he's bright...he may be all of these...but he won't be remembered for any of them. He's now the pariah. |
Or, he may be remembered as the kid who stood up for freedom. |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| canuckistan wrote: |
| Dad has just ensured that his kid will always be known in his elementary school for the wrong reasons--not because he's a good student, or a pleasure to have in class, or genuinely nice kid, or because he's bright...he may be all of these...but he won't be remembered for any of them. He's now the pariah. |
Or, he may be remembered as the kid who stood up for freedom. |
Not likely. I'd bet that in any balanced community, there'd be plenty of people that think T-shirts linking presidential candidates to terrorists are not a good idea.
Kids should be kept out of politics and religion both. These things are for adults and adults alone. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| and they only said that Marxism banned from being taught in some places in the U.S. If that is true, is that unconstitutional and a violation of the first amendment? |
I would doubt it, if you mean that it's banned from being taught in schools. Because I don't see how freedom of speech could be construed as having the right to get your ideas taught in classroooms.
But I would say it would be pretty stupid to outlaw teaching about communism, since it's pretty essential to an understanding of modern history. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I think there'd be more people in a community who'd find stifling of protected speech more odious.
You can't have the First Amendment only protecting "safe" subjects; for that you don't need it. It is exactly for odious, disagreable speech that it is needed.
Anyway, define "adult." In some places 16-year-olds can vote, and right now the National Youth Rights Association is trying to get the voting age lowered in the US.
So just how are kids supposed to learn about politics then? And some kids are just political prodigies. Wasn't there a 16-year-old mayor somewhere? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
But I would say it would be pretty stupid to outlaw teaching about communism, since it's pretty essential to an understanding of modern history. |
Um, yep. I first read Marx and Engels when I was in the 4th grade, from the school library. It was on the shelf next to some John Bircher pamphlets. My school district was very conservative.
As for the t-shirt, I would say that it's not protected as political speech because the slogan is not couched as opinion, but rather is promulgating as fact something that is not true. I might be swayed if the shirt said "I think Obama is a terrorist's best friend." Perhaps.
Since the slogan not only is a lie, but exists as provocation as well, I think it would qualify as shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater ... here's an idea: change the slogan to "Obama is a long-time casual acquaintance of Bill Ayers, who I believe has engaged in acts of terrorism."
Hm, not nearly so interesting now, is it? But at least now it IS an opinion, stated in the form of an opinion, and whatever facts are there are at least in the realm of things that can be discussed as possibly true ... as it stands now, though not even John McCain would likely approve the shirt as a suitable campaign device.
The school authorities are probably sincere in wishing to avoid fisticuffs on school grounds. There is nothing about the shirt that can remotely be connected to any concept of patriotism, and for the father to try to say so makes a mockery of the entire impulse toward loving one's country. |
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