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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
But I would say it would be pretty stupid to outlaw teaching about communism, since it's pretty essential to an understanding of modern history. |
Um, yep. I first read Marx and Engels when I was in the 4th grade, from the school library. It was on the shelf next to some John Bircher pamphlets. My school district was very conservative.
As for the t-shirt, I would say that it's not protected as political speech because the slogan is not couched as opinion, but rather is promulgating as fact something that is not true. I might be swayed if the shirt said "I think Obama is a terrorist's best friend." Perhaps.
Since the slogan not only is a lie, but exists as provocation as well, I think it would qualify as shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater ... here's an idea: change the slogan to "Obama is a long-time casual acquaintance of Bill Ayers, who I believe has engaged in acts of terrorism."
Hm, not nearly so interesting now, is it? But at least now it IS an opinion, stated in the form of an opinion, and whatever facts are there are at least in the realm of things that can be discussed as possibly true ... as it stands now, though not even John McCain would likely approve the shirt as a suitable campaign device.
The school authorities are probably sincere in wishing to avoid fisticuffs on school grounds. There is nothing about the shirt that can remotely be connected to any concept of patriotism, and for the father to try to say so makes a mockery of the entire impulse toward loving one's country. |
The 1st amendment was meant to protect political speech, but the founding fathers were focused on unity and that's one reason they also separated church from state. They knew Americans at that time, like today, were from different factions. Slandering Obama is the kind of political action that encourages the spread of political strife which is no better than encouraging sectarian strife which is not what the founding fathers wanted in the United States from what I understand. I could be wrong about that. At any right, some of the strident opponents of Obama feel so self-righteous that they don't care what comments they would make about the person. Unfortunately, some people are still using the legacy of 9/11 to use the terror scare and to associate Obama with terrorism indirectly, and that's dangerous. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| and they only said that Marxism banned from being taught in some places in the U.S. If that is true, is that unconstitutional and a violation of the first amendment? There may not be any restrictions. I am not sure. |
When I was a newbie teacher and we got to the part of the class where it was necessary to teach the students about Communism, I went to my boss and asked his advice, just to be safe. He made a good point that has stayed with me ever since. He said it was necessary to teach 'about' Communism but to be careful not to come across as if I were 'teaching Communism'.
Somewhere in the law there is something about it being a crime to teach the violent overthrow of the government. That alone puts some restraints on teaching Leninism.
I don't know if some places have banned all teaching about Marxism. If so, it probably wouldn't take even a cheap ambulance chasing lawyer 10 minutes to take care of it. |
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ernie
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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this lawsuit is making a mockery out of the free speech issue.
freedom of speech isn't an absolute: i can't make false advertising claims, slander another person, shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, or swear like a sailor in a kindergarten class.
the boy's t-shirt makes a blatantly absurd claim (wasn't obama a child at the time he met the alleged 'terrorist'?) that is meant to provoke a response in an environment that should be as apolitical as possible. if this was in a (public) university, i would be more willing to defend his rights to free speech, but absolutely not in this case. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Replace Obama with George W Bush and I guarantee the boy doesn't get suspended.
The double standard. |
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Vietman
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Obama = NO CHANGE.
I fail to see how his policy is any better than John McCain's, or Dubya's for that matter.
The whole political system in North America is a scam. You get to choose between crap and junk. |
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oskinny1
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
Replace Obama with George W Bush and I guarantee the boy doesn't get suspended.
The double standard. |
Having an Obama shirt causes a disruption of learning because of its controversial message.
Having a Bush shirt that states a fact isn't so controversial.
It wasn't the tshirt that got the kid suspended, it was the fact that he refused to do what the administration told him to do. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Vietman wrote: |
Obama = NO CHANGE.
I fail to see how his policy is any better than John McCain's, or Dubya's for that matter.
The whole political system in North America is a scam. You get to choose between crap and junk. |
You may be interested in my recent thread, The Evil of Two Lessers. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| ernie wrote: |
this lawsuit is making a mockery out of the free speech issue.
freedom of speech isn't an absolute: i can't make false advertising claims, slander another person, shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, or swear like a sailor in a kindergarten class.
the boy's t-shirt makes a blatantly absurd claim (wasn't obama a child at the time he met the alleged 'terrorist'?) that is meant to provoke a response in an environment that should be as apolitical as possible. if this was in a (public) university, i would be more willing to defend his rights to free speech, but absolutely not in this case. |
I think the McCain camp is partially responsible for this and others in the GOP camp, because they have been trying to prey upon people's fears of Muslims and are still trying to use the after effects of 9/11 to try to prevent Obama from being elected. Obama is somehow a terrorist, because his middle name is Hussein and his secular father was born with a Muslim name. Well, Salman Rushdie then must be just like Osama Bin Ladin, and George Carlin must have been just like Jerry Falwell.
McCain objected to that woman's statement, but his camp has encouraged such an environment where such statements have been made. It is ridiculous to make allegations about Obama being a terrorist just because he was associated with Ayers? Hasn't the GOP had people associated with terrorists? I am sure there are so many who have been asociated indirectly with people who have committed all kinds of crimes including the late Saddam Hussein. |
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ernie
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| yep, mc cain's getting desperate. he never had a snowball's chance in hell, anyway. |
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