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Noam Chomsky:Anti-democratic nature of US capitalism exposed
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Noam Chomsky:Anti-democratic nature of US capitalism exposed Reply with quote

Noam Chomsky: Anti-democratic nature of US capitalism is being exposed
Pubblicato da giovannicarrosio su 11 Ottobre, 2008

L�articolo di Chomsky � uscito in molteplici versioni su molti giornali e riviste internazionali. La presente versione � tratta dall�Irish Times del 10 ottobre 2008.

THE SIMULTANEOUS unfolding of the US presidential campaign and unravelling of the financial markets presents one of those occasions where the political and economic systems starkly reveal their nature.

Passion about the campaign may not be universally shared but almost everybody can feel the anxiety from the foreclosure of a million homes, and concerns about jobs, savings and healthcare at risk.

The initial Bush proposals to deal with the crisis so reeked of totalitarianism that they were quickly modified. Under intense lobbyist pressure, they were reshaped as �a clear win for the largest institutions in the system . . . a way of dumping assets without having to fail or close�, as described by James Rickards, who negotiated the federal bailout for the hedge fund Long Term Capital Management in 1998, reminding us that we are treading familiar turf. The immediate origins of the current meltdown lie in the collapse of the housing bubble supervised by Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, which sustained the struggling economy through the Bush years by debt-based consumer spending along with borrowing from abroad. But the roots are deeper. In part they lie in the triumph of financial liberalisation in the past 30 years - that is, freeing the markets as much as possible from government regulation.

These steps predictably increased the frequency and depth of severe reversals, which now threaten to bring about the worst crisis since the Great Depression.

Also predictably, the narrow sectors that reaped enormous profits from liberalisation are calling for massive state intervention to rescue collapsing financial institutions.

Such interventionism is a regular feature of state capitalism, though the scale today is unusual. A study by international economists Winfried Ruigrok and Rob van Tulder 15 years ago found that at least 20 companies in the Fortune 100 would not have survived if they had not been saved by their respective governments, and that many of the rest gained substantially by demanding that governments �socialise their losses,� as in today�s taxpayer-financed bailout. Such government intervention �has been the rule rather than the exception over the past two centuries�, they conclude.

Thoughts
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never would have expected N. Chomsky to spin it that way.

But it does not matter: B. Obama is going to turn all of this around. He will cure the planet of capitalism. Obama's going to bring "Dallas" and "Wonder Woman" back to prime time.


Last edited by Gopher on Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MollyBloom



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/noamchomskygatekepper26sep05.shtml
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MollyBloom wrote:
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/noamchomskygatekepper26sep05.shtml


From the same website:

http://educate-yourself.org/ct/
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, Chomsky is correct that we have gone from a more regulated global financial system and order to a a more chaotic one, and the major financial problems we are facing to have surfaced after decades of de-regulation, and economists have warned of the risks associated with the actions of the major investment houses. It seems okay to have the state intervene to bail these corporations at the expense of the tax payer, the middle class, that gets shafted all the time, and it is not okay to have the state interfere to make sure that those in the market are not engaging in financial activities that are overly speculative in a fashion that puts the whole global system at risk. I don't think people should be surprised that this has occured. Many economists are certainly not surprised.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reread the last third of Failed States in the past week or so. In that portion he makes an argument similar to the one above. Hitchens's article in Vanity Fair reminded me of it.

It is not democratic to privatize profit and socialize loss, especially to this degree. If some of you don't like to hear that, and don't like Chomsky, then tough.

I dislike big government and I dislike big business. We should be scared when big government and big business are as tightly in bed as they are today, all over the world. I trust a market.
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Hater Depot



Joined: 29 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't the market help create big business?
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To some extent. But the titans, GE, GM, FORD, Goldman's would never be able to survive without government help. They become inefficient, like governments. But anyways, the problem is when big business and government collude to *beep* us. The post-war period has been one where the very structure of cities have been created for business. If a business can become large and leave government alone, like Microsoft, then good for them. But they are the exception.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, N. Chomsky's god-like status or not, anyone who does not treat capitalism as a transnational phenomenon, and who treats it as a specifically American phenomenon, is a moronemon. End of story as far as this piece goes.

Chomsky seizes any and all opportunities to attempt to discredit and undermine the United States in public opinion. This is the mission he has assigned himself since the Vietnam War. Understand that, and you can predict how he will respond to anything. One-tune propagandist. Why do people think he resonates with the people he resonates with here?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
I reread the last third of Failed States in the past week or so. In that portion he makes an argument similar to the one above. Hitchens's article in Vanity Fair reminded me of it.

It is not democratic to privatize profit and socialize loss, especially to this degree. If some of you don't like to hear that, and don't like Chomsky, then tough.

I dislike big government and I dislike big business. We should be scared when big government and big business are as tightly in bed as they are today, all over the world. I trust a market.



Certainly, the order in the U.S. that has been prevailing in the past few decades is more and more undemocratic. Money represents a certain kind of power. We went from having kings in the past, and we've rejected monarchies. Why should we accept some larger oligarch led by some in the business community and for our rights to be usurped.

As Thomas Jefferson stated, "all men are created equal". And those who follow the thinking of Jean Jaques Roussea and even Locke, there has to be limitations placed on the elites, the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie is very important to us, but when the bourgeoisie wields way too much power, then it is like having a small class of people being like kings and lords over the masses when there is something called representative government that is supposed to exist. Because of the excessive marriage between some in the business community and the government, the republic is undermined.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is Chomsky a market specialist? Frankly, mises has more expertise than Chomsky does.
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Adventurer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Why is Chomsky a market specialist? Frankly, mises has more expertise than Chomsky does.


Chomsky is a political commentator as well as a linguist. How is he off base over here. He is not an economist that's for sure. At any rate, didn't Adam Smith call for some regulation of the banks? Adam Smith did not call for what many on the right have called for which is the bare minimum amount of regulation, in essence.

''The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from (dealers . . . in any particular branch of trade or manufactures) . . . ought never to be adopted till after having been . . . examined . . . with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men . . . who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public.''

Adam Smith....

We have been receiving advice and regulation and deregulation over the past decades from people from the private sector with a conflict of interest, and the public is paying for it. It is easy to go against what Chomsky said, but is Chomsky essentially wrong? I don't think.
Also, the right has also made the mistake of encourage deficit financing, so the government has not been much more responsible than the speculators of Wall Street. Why should the financially oppressed people of Main Street have to constantly bail these people out?
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Why is Chomsky a market specialist? Frankly, mises has more expertise than Chomsky does.


Well, thanks? Anyways, we have to understand what he means by 'democracy', which I'm sure we all do. It is the "people" controlling the economy, whatever that means. But in the end, I agree with him that we are seeing the privatization of massive profit and socialization of even more massive losses. And I also agree with him that this is undemocratic, though we have different ideas of what that means. It is bad, regardless.

If he said the sky was blue, I wouldn't then assume a blue sky is merely a leftist conspiracy to unwrap the military industrial complex. And I enjoy reading his books, if for no reason other than they challenge me to reassess my ideas. For one example, when I was reading Failed States recently, he makes the claim that the private sector depends deeply on the "dynamic public sector" and then uses MIT and the myriad investments and innovations that such ultra-awesome institutions make. He is right, industry does depend heavily upon the innovations made by the state in schools like MIT or Cal-Tech.

Such truths are totally ignored in mainstream economics. And to take it further, the state should be profiting more from these innovations (like the computer, for example). The revenue from properly enforced patent regimes could be the basis for an American sovereign wealth fund, though that is my idea and not his.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought we were already in agreement here, Mises: "Chomsky's level of dishonesty is appalling." And "we cannot believe he is the most cited living academic on Earth."
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mises



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure. I think the dude can be breathtakingly dishonest and he is clearly one-sided or anti-American. But that doesn't change that sometimes he is right. He has a solid habit of manufacturing sources, and citing people who cite him as a primary source.

As I said:

Quote:
If he said the sky was blue, I wouldn't then assume a blue sky is merely a leftist conspiracy to unwrap the military industrial complex.


The OP is not a referendum on NC. Or me, or Adventurers supposedly anti-American views.

These bankers, hedge fund managers and the rest made billions upon billions in bonuses and wages with a total disregard for the wider economic impact. They should have their bonuses from the last 3 years appropriated by the state and applied to any bailout.
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