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glenn
Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
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 Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Grammer question |
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This one still gets me, my students asked me why it's "go to the store" or "ging to Seoul" but not using "to" to say "go home" or go downtown"
thx
glenn |
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Straphanger
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Location: Chilgok, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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While we're on the subject, can anyone think of an example of a verb performing the adverbial function or used as a gerund, that is not conjugated to the infinitive?
There has to be one.
I want to buy some shoes.
I'm going to catch the bus.
Etc.
I've got brain-lock and I can't think of an exception to that rule, it's been bugging the hell out of me. |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| grammAr |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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To answer your question, which was about grammar and not spelling anyways, just turn to the big man himself:
http://www.eslcafe.com/grammar/confusing_words_come_go.html
| Quote: |
In a few fixed expressions, however,
go is used without a preposition:
go home / go downtown /
go uptown |
So basically, there are just a few expressions that defy the rule and there's no clear reason why. |
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Bread
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| "Go home" is weird in German, too. It uses nach instead of zu. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Grammer question |
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| glenn wrote: |
This one still gets me, my students asked me why it's "go to the store" or "ging to Seoul" but not using "to" to say "go home" or go downtown"
thx
glenn |
It's good to have curious students.
'go home' is used so often we have simply dropped the 'to the' part. That may not be a satisfactory explanation for students so I would group it with similar examples:
go home
go downtown
go there
'there' in English is not a pronoun, i.e. it doesn't substitute for, say, 'Seoul' but for 'to Seoul' (or 'in Seoul' etc). So it's an adverb and, in the same way, 'downtown' can be thought of here as an adverb meaning 'in the direction of downtown' (even though it can also be a noun).
One might ask why we say 'in there' and 'out there' but not 'to there' (well, you might use 'to there' where it means the same as 'up to there'). I don't have time to think about that now.
If you're teaching elementary school kids it's better not to get too deeply into the abstract rules but, I think, separating 'go X', 'go to X', 'go to the X' expressions into groups could be helpful. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
To answer your question, which was about grammar and not spelling anyways, just turn to the big man himself:
http://www.eslcafe.com/grammar/confusing_words_come_go.html
| Quote: |
In a few fixed expressions, however,
go is used without a preposition:
go home / go downtown /
go uptown |
So basically, there are just a few expressions that defy the rule and there's no clear reason why. |
English is full of fixed expressions, many using articles and some not. They are idiomatic units and should be taught as such since attempting to analyse them won't work. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to hijack, but what's the difference between "of course" and "sure"? I was thinking along the lines that you can ask "Are you sure?" and not "Are you of course?"
On a test my co-teacher made, "sure" and "of course" is apparently the same word in Korean, but "of course" was the answer she chose. Some students that were more fluent shit a brick when they got it wrong. |
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Letsbehonestaboutit
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| MollyBloom wrote: |
Sorry to hijack, but what's the difference between "of course" and "sure"? I was thinking along the lines that you can ask "Are you sure?" and not "Are you of course?"
On a test my co-teacher made, "sure" and "of course" is apparently the same word in Korean, but "of course" was the answer she chose. Some students that were more fluent shit a brick when they got it wrong. |
In the example you've given, the difference between "sure" and "of course" is that the two words have different meanings. "Sure" means "certain" and "of course" means an affirmative "yes". "Of course" doesn't mean "certain," so you can't ask "Are you of course?" or "Are you yes?" as it makes no sense.
However, "sure" can also be used as an affirmative "yes" as in:
P1: Are you coming?
P2: Sure (yes)
P1: Are you coming?
P2: Of course (yes)
P1: Are you coming?
P2: certain (sure)
P1: Are you coming?
P2: Of course (sure, yes) |
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Bread
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| MollyBloom wrote: |
Sorry to hijack, but what's the difference between "of course" and "sure"? I was thinking along the lines that you can ask "Are you sure?" and not "Are you of course?"
On a test my co-teacher made, "sure" and "of course" is apparently the same word in Korean, but "of course" was the answer she chose. Some students that were more fluent shit a brick when they got it wrong. |
"Of course" means "certainly" or "surely." As far as I know, it's short for "as a matter of course." |
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Letsbehonestaboutit
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Bread wrote: |
| MollyBloom wrote: |
Sorry to hijack, but what's the difference between "of course" and "sure"? I was thinking along the lines that you can ask "Are you sure?" and not "Are you of course?"
On a test my co-teacher made, "sure" and "of course" is apparently the same word in Korean, but "of course" was the answer she chose. Some students that were more fluent shit a brick when they got it wrong. |
"Of course" means "certainly" or "surely." As far as I know, it's short for "as a matter of course." |
I agree with you that idiom "of course" means ["certainly" / "surely" / and a whole host of other similar words and/or phrases like "sure" / "for sure" / "sure thing" / "you bet," etc. etc. ] but its function is to provide an emphatic, affirmative "yes", in answer to a question].
I can't think of an example where the idiom "of course" would function in a question format. To form a question that would ask the same thing as "Are you sure?" I guess you could substitute the synonym "without doubt" (=sure/certainly) - so your question would read "Are you without doubt" (in other words, "Are you sure?")
On your other point, I don't beleive that "of course" is short for "as a matter of course" as the latter idiom refers to "a habitual and correct thing that is always done" as in ("We always check people's addresses as a matter of course").
You could imagine a sentence including both idioms wherby a person may answer, "Of course (for sure, sure, certainly, yes), we always check people's addresses as a matter of course (habitually, on every occasion).
Wow! I didn't realize this would be so involved or perplexing. I hope my response is somewhat helpful. |
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M-su
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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The answer is simple my friend.
It's go to Seoul, cuz there's only one Seoul, Seoul is unique so no definite article is needed. (proper noun)
Go to the store is different cuz there are many stores around. Of course you have to look at this sentence in context, assuming that the listener knows what store you're talking about.
Mind you though, there are plenty of exceptions.. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Not to hijack, but "of course" is misused by Koreans a lot. "Of course" can have the meaning of "the answer is obvious", as in:
A: I see you're boarding this plane. Are you going to (destination)?
B: Of course. Where the hell else would I be going?
But Koreans will answer "of course" when the answer is not at all obvious, and when "sure" is a much better option:
A: Hey, Min-su. Are you going to be attending the optional lecture tomorrow?
B: Of course!
It rubs me the wrong way for some reason... |
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RyanInKorea
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| M-su wrote: |
The answer is simple my friend.
It's go to Seoul, cuz there's only one Seoul, Seoul is unique so no definite article is needed. (proper noun)
Go to the store is different cuz there are many stores around. Of course you have to look at this sentence in context, assuming that the listener knows what store you're talking about.
Mind you though, there are plenty of exceptions.. |
]
Can I vote t have him elected off the island?
What?
Ryan
P.S. Peninsula? |
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KOREAN_MAN
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Grammer question |
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| glenn wrote: |
This one still gets me, my students asked me why it's "go to the store" or "ging to Seoul" but not using "to" to say "go home" or go downtown"
thx
glenn |
Ask M-Su! He's the best teacher!
I tell my students that 'home' is an abstract concept compared to the word 'house.' A house is a building made of bricks whereas home is where your family is. That's why we say "go home" or "go back" compared to saying "go to the house" or "go to the hospital." I know this is not 100% accurate but it does help them to speak correctly.
I also tell them English is not very logical so sometimes you can't really explain why words are spoken the way they are spoken. For instance, my students have difficulty figuring out which nouns are countable and which ones are not. Why the word 'vegetables' is usually used in the plural form when 'fruit' is almost always singular, I don't know. How come you can count clouds but not smoke? Why "one tooth, many teeth" but not "one phone booth, many phone beeth?" I'm sure you can find similar examples in the Korean language. |
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