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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| They did successfully bring Persians, Christians, and Muslims together. |
Like white people brought blacks and Indians together in the Americas!
But at least you, Adventurer, seem to get that the islamic golden age was first and foremost them living on the advances of the previous occupants of the now muslim land, and the contributions of infidels or recent converts.
Once islam is totally embedded in society, it destroys everything. Scorched earth.
It is like I run into a library, kill or convert everybody and then claim that all the books are the product of me and my people. How absurd. |
Mises, that is not quite what I said, but partially. You have to place everything in context culturally and historically, and you cannot simply attribute the scholarly contributions of people who happen to be born Muslim from the Middle East while discounting that those people came from areas mainly that had civilizations and scholarly learning already.
Of course, many of those who did contribute to the civilization were in many cases very ethnically Arab, but there was a mixture out there, if you will, that the Middle East's people should recognize. Of course, secular Arabs like the late Palestinian poet, Mahmoud Darwish, recognized that as do some of the intellectuals.
Also, when those scholars did flourish, it was in a more Sufi like Islamic atmosphere which is not what prevails today. You cannot really say the Judaism of today is identical to the one of say the early 1800s, even.
It's quite different. In the same vein, the Islam of the Umayyad Empire had more of a Sufi influence, rather than what be viewed as Salafist today.
Fanatical Islam and tribalism did destroy the empire. Any empire that becomes fanatical and has an increased amount of ignorance and also has increased disparities collapses, and that's what happened.
It's typical of all empires. There was a great Buddhist empire, there was a great Islamic empire at different times, and there was a great Assyrian empire. The Babylonians had tons of science, and as a person of faith, I think they as humans had some knowledge of the divine in their own way.
Religion is of human creation, anyway, and science does not belong to a particular religion or civilization. Some of the scholars were ethnically Arab, but many were not, and a more tolerant form of Islam brought those people together, but this form of Islam is rather weak at this moment. If Muslims want to resurrect something, it would be something close to that form of Islam rather than the kind that makes so many people including Muslims shudder and ashamed as global citizens.
That's my take....
Too many Muslims complain that the West doesn't give them credit for what they did, and they are correct, but Muslims do also not give enough credit to their pagan and Christian ancestors from Mesopotamia and Persia and Greece. Credit should go to all places. It's a natural part of being human and historically honest. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Check out this list. You'll find that most of these people live and were educated outside the muslim world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_modern_Islamic_world
Apparently Al-Jazari is the middle-east 13th century equivalent of Leo Davinci. Why is it that we've never heard of him?
A better question would be: what have muslims contributed to humanity within the past four centuries; arguably the most important years of the galaxy's 12-20 billion? Here's another 'list':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_invention
What's your top five? Mine are: combustion engine, eye glasses (invented by a 'muslim' !), printing press, antibiotics, the wheel. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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The Muslims invented the Armenian Genocide, the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacre, or the Great Calamity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
Last edited by Jandar on Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KirbyMagnus
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Islam perhaps does not get enough credit for it's contribution to global culture. Though every article I read on Islam never fails to mention it (I am a bleeding heart liberal so all the stuff I read is bound to be this way).
The golden age of Islam ended because Muslims dropped the ball. Plain and simple. Islamic civilization was too afraid to ask the difficult questions. As progressive as Islam was for a time (in comparison to european medieval civilization), could it have produced a Darwin, Marx, or Freud? I don't think so.
I can't stand a lot of the rabid Islam bashers you get on Dave's and eslewhere. But I don't like the rose tinted potrayal of Islam that many try to paint. Both are distortions of the truth. Islam and islamic culture has positive aspects and has made positive contributions to humanity. It also has negative aspects and has made negative contributions. It is no better/worse than christianity in this respect. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
They invented algebra.
That was the first time I ever heard of the Muslim origins of do-re-mi-fa-so. The usual story is that it was designed by a Christian monk named Guido d'Arezzo. He took the first syllable of each line of a Latin poem. Those first syllables were ut, re, mi, fa, so, la, and ti. It was later decided that ut sounded ugly, so it was substituted with do.
This is off the subject, but we were debating the pro's and con's of Christianity on another thread. I conceded that the Christians built schools and hospitals. I started to type "and libraries," but then realized that I didn't know of any major libraries built by Christians except perhaps school libraries.
Then I realized why: A Christian school is in a position to indoctrinate you with Christianity. A Christian hospital is in a position to bias your opinion toward Christianity. But a good library? At a good library, you can check out any books you want on any subject you're interested in. You are also free to accept or reject anything written by the authors of those books. You might end up--shudder! gasp!--disagreeing with Christianity! |
Actually, it is a historical misconception that the Arabs invented Algebra. The reality is that the Arabs learned Algebra from the Indians. Of course, this is not say that the Arabs did not make significant contributions to mathematics and science. They made many. However, Algebra along with a number of other mathematical ideas and techniques came originally from India and were then passed along to the Islamic world. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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I thought the Egyptians invented Algebra?
Apparently the Baylonians, Indians, and Helenites were using Geometric proof long before Algebra. What we call Algebra was a number theory comprised of formulas published in a book called Arithmetica.
Apparently some guy came along and renamed these formulas Al-jabr and the rest is history. Now it should be noted that these Arab contemporaries Diophantus did expand much on these theories, however the basic theorems remained intact.
I found this article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus
In terms of Algebra as a proper method within numeric science.
Fermet's last theorem remained unproven until 1994.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wiles
So in conclusion Algebra as a word is Arabic in origin however Algebra as a numeric method came before the name. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Isn't that going off-topic? We are talking about science and scientific achievement. As far as genocides and holocausts, Christian born people have engaged in massive crimes against humanity in the Americas and against each other in Europe, but that is irrelevant to scientific inventions.
I am sure there are some modern, contemporary Muslim born people who have come up with innovative ideas like the Bangladeshi fellow who come up with micro-credit. When it comes to weapons, I read on Wikipedia (I was curious) that the Turkish European born soldiers used matchlock guns in 1440. That was revolutionary in the military world and less than 600 years ago. In 1589-1590 a Muslim from Kashmir came up with steel globes. I am not sure how significant that is....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_science_and_technology_in_the_Islamic_world
You shouldn't expect major inventions from Muslim countries until there is more ideological stability and more of a move from being overly ideological when it comes to religion and more focused on nation building, and the Arab-Israeli conflict would have to end to encourage such an environment. The leadership would also have to take a progressive role. All that is possible. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Jandar, to an extent, you are correct. However, the Algebra of the Greeks (Diophantus was a Helenistic Greek living in Egypt) was done almost entirely in words. There was no notation such an equals sign (=). Hence, it was a rhetorical Algebra and not a symbolic Algebra like what we have today.
The Indians, on the other hand, had developed what could be arguably called a symbolic Algebra.
Incidentally, they eventually developed fairly sophisticated mathematics including many key concepts of calculus several centuries before Isaac Newton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics |
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head-in-the-clouds
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: London for now
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| nice thread |
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joshuahirtle27
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
Religion never invented anything since Religion is an invention in itself.
For inventions to take off, you need an open society where commerce and education walk hand in hand.
Religion is always dogmatic, and therefore, has the tendency to reduce (if not wholly abolish) new ideas that challenge the concept of their religion.
So drop the Islam, Christianity stuff, and let people make up their own minds. |
THANK YOU! It's not the religion that decided something needed to be researched to make the world better. I'm Christian and I find this thread offensive. I mean... SERIOUSLY! |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| joshuahirtle27 wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
Religion never invented anything since Religion is an invention in itself.
For inventions to take off, you need an open society where commerce and education walk hand in hand.
Religion is always dogmatic, and therefore, has the tendency to reduce (if not wholly abolish) new ideas that challenge the concept of their religion.
So drop the Islam, Christianity stuff, and let people make up their own minds. |
THANK YOU! It's not the religion that decided something needed to be researched to make the world better. I'm Christian and I find this thread offensive. I mean... SERIOUSLY! |
No, but it is religion that decided that something didn't need to be researched and made the world worse. |
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joshuahirtle27
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| joshuahirtle27 wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
Religion never invented anything since Religion is an invention in itself.
For inventions to take off, you need an open society where commerce and education walk hand in hand.
Religion is always dogmatic, and therefore, has the tendency to reduce (if not wholly abolish) new ideas that challenge the concept of their religion.
So drop the Islam, Christianity stuff, and let people make up their own minds. |
THANK YOU! It's not the religion that decided something needed to be researched to make the world better. I'm Christian and I find this thread offensive. I mean... SERIOUSLY! |
No, but it is religion that decided that something didn't need to be researched and made the world worse. |
This is true. |
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DaveMcK
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
A better question would be: what have muslims contributed to humanity within the past four centuries; arguably the most important years of the galaxy's 12-20 billion?
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What has Christianity contributed to humanity in all it's existence apart from a skewed vision of spirituality designed to control the masses?
And, can I ask, what is your argument for these past 4 centuries being the most important in the galaxy's '12-20 billion'? |
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DaveMcK
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Louie wrote: |
| groups like the Taliban, Al Qaeda and so forth, are being seen in the Islamic world as groups that will bring strength and pride back into their faith (kinda' like the way the Templars, the Teutonic Knights and the Order of Malta were seen back in the Middle Ages in Europe).........Thats why they are able to recruit so many willing "jihadi", collect many 'charitable contributions', and based on the Islamic belief that "Thy will shelter my enemy's enemy", are able to find many safe havens all over the Islamic World. |
Where?
I don't blame you for thinking such a thought but there's simply far too many people open to being brainwashed by the anti Muslim brigade.
What you said just doesn't make sense. Of the Muslims I know, none of them feel that pride and strength needs to be brought back into their faith. They do what they do and leave everyone else to get on with it. There are arseholes in every quarter. There will always be arseholes and to form an opinion based on said arseholes makes anyone who does an absolute arsehole. |
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head-in-the-clouds
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: London for now
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| DaveMcK wrote: |
| Louie wrote: |
| groups like the Taliban, Al Qaeda and so forth, are being seen in the Islamic world as groups that will bring strength and pride back into their faith (kinda' like the way the Templars, the Teutonic Knights and the Order of Malta were seen back in the Middle Ages in Europe).........Thats why they are able to recruit so many willing "jihadi", collect many 'charitable contributions', and based on the Islamic belief that "Thy will shelter my enemy's enemy", are able to find many safe havens all over the Islamic World. |
Where?
I don't blame you for thinking such a thought but there's simply far too many people open to being brainwashed by the anti Muslim brigade.
What you said just doesn't make sense. Of the Muslims I know, none of them feel that pride and strength needs to be brought back into their faith. They do what they do and leave everyone else to get on with it. There are arseholes in every quarter. There will always be arseholes and to form an opinion based on said arseholes makes anyone who does an absolute arsehole. |
your right and there are 'arseholes' in our quater. However, the dont tend to fly planes into buildings and blow up underground trains in the name of god.
Think before we type please kids  |
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