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Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

mises · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegas+construction+suspended&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS271US271

I doubt it. Vegas was the ultimate symbol of the excesses of the last 10 years. It will significantly decrease in capacity.

It is likely there will be a few Pyongyang-style hotels that aren't finished as well. It is a total mess out there. These companies are losing money hand over fist and the banks that lent to them are broke.

With your other threads, you are on to something. Aggregate spending by the government has not yet hit the wall. But private demand, which is what Vegas is, has. HELOC is dead. No more trips from LA to Vegas for a weekend of Entourage-style "ballin" on credit. Bling is out. Financial austarity is in.

And competition from Singapore, Macao for international tourists etc. And that cities across the States are building their own casinos to fill a massive revenue gap.

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

mises · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired

Strongly disagree. Wait and see, I guess. I see a paradigm shift and you see a regular downturn.

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

I see a real crisis in a country that has been experiencing, adapting to, and changing through such crises since post-Civil War times -- when, for example, anarchists assassinated W. McKinley.

I see you interpreting this particular moment, this particular change as a decline. You seem to feel certain beyond a doubt that this is different. I see you constructing/describing "messes," and the end of times in the United States. I see you objecting to those who object to those who allege that the sky is falling. And I also see you objecting to my own characterizing and responding to your position. So, ultimately, I find your position hard to nail.

mises · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

When Beijing or some other power or collection of powers in East Asia starts calling the shots in world affairs and the global economy, I imagine you will let us know.

mises · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired

I see you, once again, focusing on and attacking to the death, one small element of the position I have advanced while at the same time ignoring that overall position.

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

mises · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired

I speak of BW in the past tense because it is in the past, BW2 is still with us, though weakening by the day.

I did not speak of American leadership, but if I were to comment on it I'd have some strong opinions. Firstly, by "America", I refer entirely to the American government today. Economic leadership, dead for now. The American economic credibility bubble burst. Greenspan and Bush were disasters. Greenspan admitted as much today. Let's see what Mac or Obama does. Moral leadership. You know what I'll say to that. Let's see what Mac or Obama does with gitmo etc.

But, one more time. The United States will not collapse, or break up into different states, or become like Somalia or etc. It will not be as wealthy, because much of the wealth we associate with middle class America was borrowed. And I also believe it will not be able to afford outspending almost the whole world in military buildup. All of this is on balance good for the country, I figure. More stable, for sure.

It will be a country that rediscovers proper financial planning, austerity and budgeting. As I said, bling is out. The 30k millies can die. Ed Hardy is at 70% across the board discount in most department stores. The average consumer won't pay 200$ for an ugly t-shirt. This is a very good thing. Save for college. Don't borrow for college. Etc.

Don't look for things that aren't there. It is very annoying. I do not want, wish, hope for, advocate for, anticipate, desire, pray for, voodoo for, celebrate --or anything similar-- a collapse of or end to the United States. Keep this in mind for the future, please.

Kuros · Joined: 27 Apr 2004

This thread is its own heightened reality. Laughing

Milwaukiedave · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Location: Goseong

OMG! I haven't been to Vegas in about 5 years, but between 1994-2003 made 5 or 6 trips there. I have relatives there as well, so normally I try to go pretty often. The picture from the link Gopher posted blew me away. I recongnize exactly where that is and remember it being empty the last time I was there. If I'm not mistaken (and maybe Gopher can correct me if I am) is that not the back of the Bellagio on the left hand side?

We were suppose to go there this summer, but put the trip off. I'm hoping to go next summer. If so, it looks like I'm going to have whiplash from looking up at those tall buildings.

Gopher · Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Every time I return the Strip looks like a different city, especially the area between Trop and Spring Mountain, which is becoming very, very densely packed. They are building casinos, large ones, equipped with theme-park rides, multiscreen movie theaters, restaurants and night clubs, in many cases, massive shopping malls, and in some very welcome cases, topless pools, all the way into Red Rock Canyon now.

And the sad thing is that everything that was Classic Vegas has been destroyed for these new and improved megaresorts. I believe Caesars and the Flamingo are all that remain. They destroyed the Stardust last year. They are building a multibillion dollar resort in its place as we speak. Bigger than the MGM Grand, I understand.

Did you check out these concepts...?

http://www.vegastodayandtomorrow.com/images/veer_towers_aerial.jpg

http://www.vegastodayandtomorrow.com/images/citycenter_overview_night.jpg

Milwaukiedave · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Location: Goseong

Yeah, it's all about bigger, better and more expensive.

I didn't see them, but I will take a look. I have a feeling when I go to LV next year I'm going to be shocked.

Tiger Beer · Joined: 07 Feb 2003

Vegas...so many topics introduced here.

First, yeah, that argument that many casinos are going all over the U.S. True, but I feel they just spark more interest to go to Vegas. If you visit the others, people talk about their upcoming trip to Vegas, etc. It still is THE place to be, particularly for people who like casinos.

Macao. Still not Vegas. Kinda like Atlantic City, people from the East Coast STILL fly to Vegas and have Vegas promotions. Plus, to people into casinos, Macao has a horrible payout rate, the casinos are rigged much higher to the owners favor. Not the promotions either (although Vegas is getting worse with that in some ways).

U.S. Economy. Internationally, people who are WEALTHY will STILL go to Vegas, including celebrities, royalty, athletes, all of them. Sure, little old retired ladies and guys are good for atmosphere, but the real money comes in from the wealthy anyways.

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THE DOWNTOWN. Now those photos are INTERESTING: http://www.vegastodayandtomorrow.com/THEdowntownMAP.htm

My last time in Vegas, about a year ago, the downtown looked as SKETCHY as ever, if not moreso. It is a great idea to revitalize, as enormous potential! Hope their vision woks.