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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Re: RNC purchases Palin $150,000 clothes. Conversion/Theft? |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Fantastic thread.
| mmarshalynne wrote: |
2 USC 439(a) deals with prohibited uses of campaign contributions by Federal Candidates (which includes candidates for VP). Subsection (b) of that section states the following:
(b) Prohibited use.
(1) In general. A contribution or donation described in subsection
(a) shall not be converted by any person to personal use.
(2) Conversion. For the purposes of paragraph (1), a contribution
or donation shall be considered to be converted to personal use if the contribution or amount is used to fulfill any commitment, obligation, or expense of a person that would exist irrespective of the candidate�s election campaign or individual�s duties as a holder of Federal office, including�
(A) a home mortgage, rent, or utility payment;
(B) a clothing purchase;
(C) a noncampaign-related automobile expense;
(D) a country club membership;
(E) a vacation or other noncampaign-related trip;
(F) a household food item;
(G) a tuition payment;
(H) admission to a sporting event, concert, theater, or other form of entertainment not associated with an election campaign; and
(I) dues, fees, and other payments to a health club or recreational facility. |
I bolded the relevant language. This is a fact-based question. The question is, has Palin used the clothes for anything besides campaign duties? Because, the statute allows clothes to be purchased for Palin, provided those clothes be worn solely for campaign purposes. Note that Palin CANNOT wear the clothes to campaign and then use them for personal use: those clothes are campaign clothes. So once Palin loses the election, she may not keep the clothing. |
You are actually missing a more important point.
The law being cited covers the campaign expenditures. But according to the facts in the OP, the clothes were bought by the Republican Party.
There are different rules for Party expenditures and funraising than for Campaign expenditures and fundraising.
Federal campaign donations are limited to $2300 per donor.
Party donors are limited to $28,000 per donor.
The campaign many not be able to buy clothes for Palin, but it may be perfectly legal for the Party to do so AND for her to take them home. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: Re: RNC purchases Palin $150,000 clothes. Conversion/Theft? |
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| ontheway wrote: |
There are different rules for Party expenditures and funraising than for Campaign expenditures and fundraising. |
Well, then you can see what's coming.
Do you have authority for your assertion? |
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mmarshalynne
Joined: 23 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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On the way said,
| Quote: |
You are actually missing a more important point.
The law being cited covers the campaign expenditures. But according to the facts in the OP, the clothes were bought by the Republican Party.
There are different rules for Party expenditures and funraising than for Campaign expenditures and fundraising.
Federal campaign donations are limited to $2300 per donor.
Party donors are limited to $28,000 per donor.
The campaign many not be able to buy clothes for Palin, but it may be perfectly legal for the Party to do so AND for her to take them home. |
In response:
2 USC, Ch 14, Subchapter I, Section 441a (B)(i):
expenditures made by any person in cooperation, consultation, or concert, with, or at the request or suggestion of, a candidate, his authorized political committees, or their agents, shall be considered to be a contribution to such candidate. |
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mmarshalynne
Joined: 23 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote,
| Quote: |
| I bolded the relevant language. This is a fact-based question. The question is, has Palin used the clothes for anything besides campaign duties? Because, the statute allows clothes to be purchased for Palin, provided those clothes be worn solely for campaign purposes. Note that Palin CANNOT wear the clothes to campaign and then use them for personal use: those clothes are campaign clothes. So once Palin loses the election, she may not keep the clothing. |
I agree that this is an argument that could be made. On the other hand, when I analyze the list I see items that are listed without limitation, and other items that are listed that expressly state unless campaign-related. Thus, I would argue that the purchase of any of the following are simply not to be paid for by campaign funds:
(A) home mortgage, rent, or utility payment;
(B) a clothing purchase;
(D) a country club membership;
(E) a vacation
(F) a household food item;
(G) a tuition payment;
(H) admission to a sporting event, concert, theater, or other form of entertainment not associated with an election campaign; and
(I) dues, fees, and other payments to a health club or recreational facility
and that the following can be paid for out of campaign funds if they are campaign related:
(B) campaign-related automobile expense
(E) campaign-related trip
It could be argued that if a distinction between the two is not being drawn in this way, why would some of these items specifically state "noncampaign related" and others not? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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5.3 MILLION FOR THE GREEK TEMPLE AT THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.
THAT SEEMS LIKE A LOT MORE MONEY THAT WHAT WAS SPENT ON PALIN
DOUBLE STANDARDS
END OF CONVERSATION.
| Quote: |
Most of that money went to pay expenses of the Democratic National Convention Committee, the party organization that staged the DNC. Nine percent of the host committee�s money went to pay its own expenses, which included salaries, marketing and staging various events off the convention grounds.
Convention expenses paid by the committee included $14.1 million for construction costs, including the stage and lighting, at the Pepsi Center and $5.3 million at Invesco Field.
The group said it has $7.1 million on hand but still is receiving invoices from contractors. It plans to file an updated report with those expenditures later. |
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2008/10/13/daily43.html |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Yup as I said- with the news above this thread is over. |
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The Hammer
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ullungdo 37.5 N, 130.9 E, altitude : 223 m
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Yup as I said- with the news above this thread is over. |
Not so fast Joo!
I don't blame Sarah Palin about the $150,000 for clothes. There isn't a hockey mom on the planet that would turn down an offer like that.
Try it!
Ask any hockey mom if they'd like $150K worth of clothes and they'll be in the mini-van faster than you can say, "You're late picking up the kids from the rink."
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Palin is on record (video tape) saying she won't keep the clothes after the campaign.
Joo, where is the law that says a campaign or a party (either one) can or can't build a Greek temple? Word is, she is furious with the campaign for embarrassing her this way. The main thrust is that she has been marketing herself as a plain hockey mom, just like the average Joe the Plumber. It's about message vs appearances. Somewhat reminescent of the evangelical preacher giving his hell fire and brimstone sermon and then being caught with his pants down in the 'sporting' house. You shouldn't sin on Saturday night if you are going to preach against it on Sunday morning. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| mmarshalynne wrote: |
On the way said,
| Quote: |
You are actually missing a more important point.
The law being cited covers the campaign expenditures. But according to the facts in the OP, the clothes were bought by the Republican Party.
There are different rules for Party expenditures and funraising than for Campaign expenditures and fundraising.
Federal campaign donations are limited to $2300 per donor.
Party donors are limited to $28,000 per donor.
The campaign many not be able to buy clothes for Palin, but it may be perfectly legal for the Party to do so AND for her to take them home. |
In response:
2 USC, Ch 14, Subchapter I, Section 441a (B)(i):
expenditures made by any person in cooperation, consultation, or concert, with, or at the request or suggestion of, a candidate, his authorized political committees, or their agents, shall be considered to be a contribution to such candidate. |
As I said.
The rules for Political Party Committees are quite different than the rules for Political Candidate Committees.
The rules are again different for State Party Committees and County and Local Party Committees, which fall under the laws of 50 different states plus DC and are not even all called committees.
The rules are even more different for state and local candidates with different rules for different offices and which fall under the laws of 50 different states plus DC.
I know this because I've been quite active in party activities is several parties: recruiting candidates for office at every level in dozens of states and at the highest national level, organizing campaigns, planning fundraising, direct mail, telemarketing, TV and radio advertising, (even to being a radio character voice for a Republican for Governor), petitioning campaigns for candidates and initiatives, and advising on legal action against restrictive rules and regulations that restrict voters, candidates, parties, donors and their supporters.
The Republican National Committee can legally buy clothes for Palin, or anyone else in the world, if they think it will help the party achieve its goals. The last time I checked, donors could donate up to $28,000 per individual per year to national party committees. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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The Hammer
| Quote: |
Not so fast Joo!
I don't blame Sarah Palin about the $150,000 for clothes. There isn't a hockey mom on the planet that would turn down an offer like that.
Try it!
Ask any hockey mom if they'd like $150K worth of clothes and they'll be in the mini-van faster than you can say, "You're late picking up the kids from the rink." |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Palin is on record (video tape) saying she won't keep the clothes after the campaign.
Joo, where is the law that says a campaign or a party (either one) can or can't build a Greek temple? Word is, she is furious with the campaign for embarrassing her this way. The main thrust is that she has been marketing herself as a plain hockey mom, just like the average Joe the Plumber. It's about message vs appearances. Somewhat reminescent of the evangelical preacher giving his hell fire and brimstone sermon and then being caught with his pants down in the 'sporting' house. You shouldn't sin on Saturday night if you are going to preach against it on Sunday morning. |
Well if it is a conversation about wasting money for show this thread is dead. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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The ruling is in.
As I had explained at the time, the rules for party committees are different than the rules for campaign committees:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090519/ap_on_el_pr/us_palin_clothing
| Quote: |
FEC dismisses complaint over Palin clothing
By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer Sharon Theimer, Associated Press Writer � 1 hr 39 mins ago
WASHINGTON � The Federal Election Commission has dismissed a complaint over the $150,000-plus designer wardrobe the Republican Party bought to outfit vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin.
Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, the good-government group that filed the complaint, argued that candidates aren't supposed to use donor money for personal expenses such as clothes. The FEC ruled Tuesday that the ban doesn't apply to party money, however.
The Alaska governor was Sen. John McCain's pick for vice president. The purchases from such high-end stores as Saks Fifth Avenue and Neiman Marcus drew criticism for Palin, the self-described hockey mom.
The Republican National Committee told the commission that party money rather than candidate campaign money was used for the purchases.
"We have no information to the contrary," the FEC wrote in its decision.
The RNC also argued that the shopping spree was allowed under campaign finance rules that let the party spend on behalf of and in coordination with presidential campaigns.
The RNC spent at least $150,000 on designer clothing, accessories and hair and makeup services for Palin after she became McCain's running mate in September. The high-end duds contrasted with the down-to-earth image that Palin and the campaign sought to craft for her.
The purchases included $75,062 worth at Neiman Marcus in Minneapolis; $49,425 at Saks Fifth Avenue; $9,447 at Macy's; and $789 at the luxury retailer Barneys New York. Goods were also bought for Palin family members, such as $4,902 spent at upscale men's store Atelier and $92 at Pacifier, a Minneapolis baby boutique. |
(They should have made better use of the pacifier.) |
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