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Chamchiman
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Location: Digging the Grave
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 Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Ballot Design |
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Why are there different (and complicated) ballot designs in different areas in the US? And why don't Americans just use a pencil and check a box like many other countries?
Surely there's a rationale for this. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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#1. We don't have national elections in the US. We have 51 separate elections that happen on the same day once every 2 years. Each state selects the ballot design it likes.
#2. It takes a long time to count 122,284,939 (2004 total) votes by hand. The new electronic devices are all ways to get it done faster and cut down on voting fraud. We used to have problems with paper ballots 'disappearing'. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Here in KY we have paper ballots. I'm glad we do. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you saying you are sympathetic to canukistan's view on the other thread? Just asking. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Are you saying you are sympathetic to canukistan's view on the other thread? Just asking. |
Partially. I don't see why we should have touch-screen computer ballots. With something as important as voting, I'd like it to be hands-on.
None of the above should signify that I believe either election was stolen. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm rather a low-tech kind of guy myself. I like the idea of renting the Swiss Army for a month, having paper ballots under their guard while everyone votes and announcing the winner at the end. I especially disapprove of announcing any results until all the polling places are closed--IOW, let New York white-knuckle it until Hawaii is finished voting. |
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Chamchiman
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Location: Digging the Grave
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| #1. We don't have national elections in the US. We have 51 separate elections that happen on the same day once every 2 years. Each state selects the ballot design it likes. |
Which states had the problems last time? As I recall there were a lot of elderly people in Florida who couldn't figure them out.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| #2. It takes a long time to count 122,284,939 (2004 total) votes by hand. The new electronic devices are all ways to get it done faster and cut down on voting fraud. We used to have problems with paper ballots 'disappearing'. |
We count them VERY quickly in Canada. They're finished counting in the east before the polls even close in the west. In the States it should take ten times as long, or just as long with ten times the people counting. Doesn't seem so hard.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I'm rather a low-tech kind of guy myself. I like the idea of renting the Swiss Army for a month, having paper ballots under their guard while everyone votes and announcing the winner at the end. I especially disapprove of announcing any results until all the polling places are closed--IOW, let New York white-knuckle it until Hawaii is finished voting. |
You've described exactly what we do in Canada (minus the Swiss Army). |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
#1. We don't have national elections in the US. We have 51 separate elections that happen on the same day once every 2 years. Each state selects the ballot design it likes.
Which states had the problems last time? As I recall there were a lot of elderly people in Florida who couldn't figure them out.
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As I said, each state chooses the ballot style it wants. Florida chose a style that ended up not working very well. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
#1. We don't have national elections in the US. We have 51 separate elections that happen on the same day once every 2 years. Each state selects the ballot design it likes.
Which states had the problems last time? As I recall there were a lot of elderly people in Florida who couldn't figure them out.
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As I said, each state chooses the ballot style it wants. Florida chose a style that ended up not working very well. |
Thats right. Federalism. Each state chooses the ballot. If several states fail, that does not make the other forty-odd states 'third world,' whatever 'third-world' means. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Thats right. Federalism. Each state chooses the ballot. If several states fail, that does not make the other forty-odd states 'third world,' whatever 'third-world' means. |
I fail to understand what your point is, kuros. We all know what federalism is, but what did you mean by the rest of what you wrote? For example, who on this thread was talking about the third world in relation to balloting?
Maybe I missed it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Thats right. Federalism. Each state chooses the ballot. If several states fail, that does not make the other forty-odd states 'third world,' whatever 'third-world' means. |
I fail to understand what your point is, kuros. We all know what federalism is, but what did you mean by the rest of what you wrote? For example, who on this thread was talking about the third world in relation to balloting?
Maybe I missed it. |
*checks thread*
You're right. Not on this thread. Must've been something latent in my memory.
I do remember some fat Dane in Shanghai telling me 'your country' can't even get elections right. Just because the results didn't please him, I suppose. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Or because words more properly associated with the third world are appropriately used to describe elections in the US. Suppression, fraud, intimidation etc..
Why the hell doesn't the government register all citizens to vote? Why can't a single system of paper ballots with transparent counting be used? Why? Because the system is gamed. Like redistricting and the rest. Like a fake cry of "spread the wealth", when the wealth is being spread to Lockheed. Camon Kuros. The fat Dane was on to something. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The new electronic devices are all ways to get it done faster and cut down on voting fraud |
Isn't that oxymoronic? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Or because words more properly associated with the third world are appropriately used to describe elections in the US. Suppression, fraud, intimidation etc..
Camon Kuros. The fat Dane was on to something. |
The fat Dane violated the rule of sensible generalizations. When you generalize too much of something you don't understand, you come out looking like an ass.
The bigger, more complicated, more diverse the entity you generalize, the more likely you don't understand it. China and the US are very tricky beasts, and people who make statements like 'The US is X' or 'China likes Y' are usually falling into the ignorance trap, where X and Y are definitive, value-laden terms.
The fat Dane could have easily protected himself by saying, 'Florida can't get its elections right.' But he didn't.
The fat Dane had other problems, one of which was his views on the US and the data as the foundation point for those views, seemed eerily reminiscient of the kind of philosophy I had seen in Michael Moore movies. Which is probably why I still associate him by his weight in addition to his nationality.
| Quote: |
| Why the hell doesn't the government register all citizens to vote? |
Federalism. Aren't Canadians supposed to know what Federalism is?
Any two individuals might dispute just how autonomous the States should be, such as Ya-Ta and I do on occasion, but each of us recognizes that States are autonomous to some level. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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A chain is only as weak as each individual link. You can put up Federalism and claim non-Americans don't understand all you want. The perspective that you are missing is that of someone who comes from a country where this sort of stuff doesn't happen, and then examines the American one. Seriously, America needs to learn from how 'the rest of the West' does things.
How we deal with federalism and elections:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_Canada
Learn from your northern neighbour. |
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