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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Or they can just throw a tantrum and whine to the mods that they are being attacked. |
Back to the issue at hand, huh? How gracious of you.
You do not have the right or the power -- and California and two other states just reaffirmed this -- to redefine "family" and "marriage" unilaterally.
Rant here all you like, hurl invective at me, too, call me homophobic, mentally ill, and place me with the anti-gay religious right. You will not change the outcome one iota.
That is all I have to say here, except to point out, again, that you have hijacked this thread from what I had originally intended it to be. But that is your side's MO, is it not?
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:26 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Or they can just throw a tantrum and whine to the mods that they are being attacked. |
Back to the issue at hand, huh? How gracious of you. |
I'm just trying to save you from yourself. Doesn't look like it's going to happen though. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Or they can just throw a tantrum and whine to the mods that they are being attacked. |
Back to the issue at hand, huh? How gracious of you.
You do not have the right or the power -- and California and two other states just reaffirmed this -- to redefine "family" and "marriage" unilaterally.
Rant here all you like, hurl invective at me, too, call me homophobic, mentally ill, and place me with the anti-gay religious right. You will not change the outcome one iota.
That is all I have to say here, except to point out, again, that you have hijacked this thread from what I had originally intended it to be. But that is your side's MO, is it not? |
Got to say seeing you implode like this is very amusing. Great stuff. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
You do not have the right or the power -- and California and two other states just reaffirmed this -- to redefine "family" and "marriage" unilaterally.
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I never said that I did. Nor does a popular vote in California, or any other state, define what "family" and "marriage" are. Gays have survived for eons without recognized marriages. I'm sure they'll survive the latest set back.
Care to address how your definition of "forced agenda" differs from mine? I still fail to see what is being forced onto people with legalized gay marriages. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
So now I am "anti-gay?" Huffdaddy: we have nothing further to discuss.
| Kuros wrote: |
| Still, Gopher, I don't know why you keep bringing up this 'democratic' decision-making thing. Its a civil liberties question. |
Probably coming at it from different angles. First, mainstream academic thinking on this centers around "citizenship," "democracy," and "inclusion." See Linda Kerber and many, many others. Everyone is arguing for democratically arrived at concepts and definitions. "The family," "marriage," etc.
Second, it came to us this year as a democratic decision-making thing in three states as a proposition question. It appeared in earlier elections as well. Whether you like it or not, it is a democratic decision-making thing, then. |
Gopher, instead of defending these kind of propositions, look a little bit down the road. When these propositions come up, they are raising the constitutional question. The Supreme Court will eventually have to decide whether a gay marriage is a right under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. We already know the Court can supersede State Constitutions, we've seen it happen in Brown v. Board of Education and Roe v. Wade through the perfectly clearly worded 14th Amendment.
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| Finally, I find it alarming that people would seize interpretive power and then force opponents aside on issues like this that affect us all: what constitutes the family and marriage and what consequences extend from altering extant definitions, etc. |
Actually, this really almost exclusively affects the queers.
| Gopher wrote: |
| The left has always gone about these things far too cavalierly and self-righteously, and has usually suffered stunning defeats and has even created conservative backlashes -- starting with B. Clinton's forced retreat into "don't ask/don't tell" in 1993 and manifesting with today's exclusion of same-sex marriage from "Yes, we can!" in California and elsewhere. |
Wait. The left? But you . . . voted No for Prop 8. So that must mean . . .
Everybody! Gopher's coming out . . . as a Leftist!  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Nor does a popular vote in California, or any other state, define what "family" and "marriage" are. |
In fact, they just did. And it does not include same-sex marriage. This exclusion is now constitutional in California, Arizona, and Florida.
Expect other states to follow. And if this comes to the Supreme Court, it could go either way.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| I still fail to see... |
Yes, you do. Nothing I say here will change that. This apparently strikes too close to home with you.
I had no problem voting against this proposition because I could justify it as an isolated issue. Many of those who are pushing it, however, do not. You studiously ignore the larger struggle and agenda here. Has to do with issues and agendas like these. Enforced androgyny. Very politically active people who expressly aim to influence the courts and govt at all levels.
Example
Example
Example
Example
They have already organized lists of those who contributed funding to the "yes" campaign and are circulating them to promote boycotting, for example, their hotels in academic conferences, etc., etc. I have received them via several listserves. This is a confederation of very, very active interests.
Thank you Kuros. That is why I continue posting on this thread. To see myself characterized as homophobic and a member of the anti-gay religious right by a hysterical gay guy and his "Me-too!" sidekick, JMO. And now you, too. Very well. Have your day.
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:52 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Everybody! Gopher's coming out . . . as a Leftist! |
Now you've gone too far! Mods!! |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Nor does a popular vote in California, or any other state, define what "family" and "marriage" are. |
In fact, they just did. And it does not include same-sex marriage. |
It does not include state recognized same-sex marriage, in those states. Gay couples have been in committed relationships for years. Some of them call it "marriage." And in some places, it's even a recognized marriage. Some of them also have families. Sorry, but Proposition 8 doesn't turn everyone straight. Just by saying that something doesn't exist doesn't make it so.
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| I still fail to see... |
Yes, you do. Nothing I say here will change that. This apparently strikes too close to home with you. |
Of course. I have gay friends and I believe they deserve the same civil liberties and choices that I have.
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| I had no problem voting against this proposition because I could justify it as an isolated issue. Many of those who are pushing it, however, do not. You studiously ignore the larger struggle and agenda here. Has to do with issues and agendas like these. Enforced androgyny. Very politically active people who expressly aim to influence the courts and govt at all levels. |
Finally, you've addressed the issue of "forced agenda."
I too see it as an isolated issue. Gay marriage is a basic civil liberty that doesn't effect anyone else but the people choosing to get married. As for the related issues that do effect other people, and aren't basic civil liberties, I am at the mercy of "democracy". Even if it leads to things I'd personally oppose, such as unisex bathrooms.
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| They have already organized lists of those who contributed funding to the "yes" campaign and are circulating them to promote boycotting, for example, their hotels in academic conferences, etc., etc. |
It's called voting with their pocket books. Christian groups do the same thing to oppose gay rights. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Thank you Kuros. That is why I continue posting on this thread. To see myself characterized as homophobic and a member of the anti-gay religious right by a hysterical gay guy and his "Me-too!" sidekick, JMO. And now you, too. Very well. Have your day. |
Relax. Nobody has said, or even implied, that you're homophobic or anti-gay. If it makes you feel better calling me gay, so be it. I'm not so insecure as to get riled up by it. That you're flipping out over Kuros's response is proof in the pudding that you're the one being completely unreasonable and going off the rails. Take a vacation dude. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Thank you Kuros. That is why I continue posting on this thread. To see myself characterized as homophobic and a member of the anti-gay religious right by a hysterical gay guy and his "Me-too!" sidekick, JMO. And now you, too. Very well. Have your day. |
This is fantastic. I enjoy a good rant.
It's great how you call someone gay after demanding an apology for a pseudo-insult that only you saw.
I love it when you go off the rails. Please keep it up. Remember Goph, it's you against the world. Fight that good fight brother.
Last edited by JMO on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Thank you Kuros. That is why I continue posting on this thread. To see myself characterized as homophobic and a member of the anti-gay religious right by a hysterical gay guy and his "Me-too!" sidekick, JMO. And now you, too. Very well. Have your day. |
I couldn't help it. The set up was right there. I was COMPELLED.
I'm coming in and out of here while writing a note (its not really a whole note, its a baby note for the junior law journal) and trying to get, and stay, in the groove. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I am so glad that this debate is over with in Canada. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I couldn't help it. The set up was right there. I was COMPELLED.
I'm coming in and out of here while writing a note (its not really a whole note, its a baby note for the junior law journal) and trying to get, and stay, in the groove. |
No me digas.
I on the other hand am in and out of here to escape the monotony of the undergrads' diatribes that they call "term papers." Not at all unlike reading people's posts here...
Good luck with the baby note. Sounds more fun than writing a briefing, in any case. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Enrico: this is unacceptable. Huffdaddy has systematically attempted to make this thread about me personally. He has "joked" that I am homophobic, assigned me mental illness, and now is forcing me into the anti-gay religious right. This represents an absurd and crudely-constructed strawman. |
Drama queen.
Is that better? |
Frankly, I thought that there was an understanding between the posters on this forum who all have at least a bachelor's degree and are adults that they would play the ball and not the player. I feel some of you are acting like people who want mom to intervene and sometimes hit someone and then the person chases after you, and then you yell "Mom, poster x is coming after me!". We get so many reports from this forum.
I can't tell you how many. Can you go back to what you agreed to, ladies and gentlemen? I am not referring to one particular poster over the other, and attempts to use moderators to ban one poster that you don't like is very old. Let's not go there.
Thanks, |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| I am so glad that this debate is over with in Canada. |
Once your whites are outnumbered by 'others', it could very well change on you!
I think this is what happened in California...if white hasn't become the minority already in California, it is VERY close. Between Asian, Mexican, and African-American voters...they don't exactly come along being openly pro-gay and excitingly willing to vote for gay rights. |
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