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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: The Christian God is impossible |
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Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman
Introduction
Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.
Proving a Universal Negative
It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.
I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.
Defining YHWH
Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.
One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.
Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
Perfection Begets Imperfection
But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
The Freewill Argument
The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering
God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
Belief More Important Than Action
Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.
Perfection's Imperfect Revelation
The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.
No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.
Contradictory Justice
One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.
Contradictory History
The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?
Unfulfilled Prophecy
The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.
The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.
The Omniscient Changes the Future
A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.
The Omniscient is Surprised
A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.
We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.
The Conclusion of the matter
I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.
Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:
"You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."
If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.
As for me and my house, we shall choose reality. |
evilbible.com
FINAL SCORE: Atheism 1-0 Christianity |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| It's clear that however God was described in the Bible was through the eyes of relatively primitive people. Probably their definitions of omnipotence and omniscience, as well as the creation of the universe, were much smaller than our current philosophical absolutes. If there is a god, which there probably isn't, it's probably nothing like the Bible. |
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nobbyken
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Location: Yongin ^^
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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A narrow minded person finds it difficult to have faith as a logical means of salvation.
An open mind and heart is what God can work with.
Ask and you'll receive, seek and you'll find, knock and the door will be opened.
Don't be busy trying close the door for others, or deny that it exists.
Love,
Nk |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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I would just like to give a shout out to the writers of the bible..
I mean not a bad effort really.. best sellers list 2000 years after it was written, billions of books sold..
The most famous book in history!
and who were these writers?? I mean these sound like a pretty cool bunch of cats! they had some great imaginations and really were motivated and passionate for their stories.. they probably sat around the crib smoking some great AFGAN hash and telling stories..
the kind of cool artist crowd type hahahaha drinking nice coffee and smoking hash! bit of red wine etc..
but seriously... they put a lot of effort into this book and really covered a lot of ground...
well done...
what do you say the second most famous book in history was??
probably the Quran? |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| nobbyken wrote: |
A narrow minded person finds it difficult to have faith as a logical means of salvation.
An open mind and heart is what God can work with.
Ask and you'll receive, seek and you'll find, knock and the door will be opened.
Don't be busy trying close the door for others, or deny that it exists.
Love,
Nk |
A narrow minded person finds it difficult to question their beliefs, and those that they have devoted their lives to.
An open mind thinks.
Ask and you'll receive, just don't ask if anybody is there, knock on the door though nobody is home. Don't be busy putting you foot in the door, my foot and your ass do exist!
ED209
Question everything, God doesn't want stupid people in heaven(or fat chicks) |
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BS.Dos.
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| What kind of name is Chad Docterman? Bob would have been better. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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JH,
Thanks for the post, it was a very interesting read. Although I don't agree with everything the author says, his essay/thesis is an interesting example of what happens when you attempt to look to supernatural beings as an explanation for the origin and workings of the universe. Right away, you start running into problems and logical contradictions...
And I would suggest that much thought has been put into resolving these contradictions by theologists over the centuries. Indeed, it may be the biggest concern in the theology "project" per se.
...
If you look further at the author's website, he/she makes a distinction between 'true' atheists and atheists who don't absolutely discount -- but regard as highly improbable -- the possibility of the existence of supernatural "determiners" (intelligent beings that control/manipulate/determine the origins and machinery of the physical universe).
Personally I would put myself in the latter category, with the addendum that I don't worry about the possibility of the existence of supernatural determiners all that much...any more than I spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not The Tooth Fairy really exists.
Last edited by Manner of Speaking on Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ivor
Joined: 24 Oct 2008
Location: Wherever you are!! Really! (in Daejeon)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| nobbyken wrote: |
A narrow minded person finds it difficult to have faith as a logical means of salvation.
An open mind and heart is what God can work with.
Ask and you'll receive, seek and you'll find, knock and the door will be opened.
Don't be busy trying close the door for others, or deny that it exists.
Love,
Nk |
What on earth do you mean by OPEN MIND?
Hah! You mean the one who doesnot agree with you is a narrow minded maggot?
Thats definitely un-godly!  |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: |
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but god loves you and will send you to hell forever.
edit: too lazy to read the article |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| nobbyken wrote: |
A narrow minded person finds it difficult to have faith as a logical means of salvation.
An open mind and heart is what God can work with.
Ask and you'll receive, seek and you'll find, knock and the door will be opened.
Don't be busy trying close the door for others, or deny that it exists.
Love,
Nk |
dude, ya got any more of those pills? |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale, oh, I mean Spinoza, is almost as bad as a Jehovah's Witness with this indoctrination crap. You post more articles preaching your beliefs and trying to tell people you know the right way! |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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It's been a while since I've responded to one of these sorts of threads. I feel deep down that they are read by the same dozen people who, whichever side they are on, maintain their belief system after participating in these threads. So I usually decide I could better spend my time on other things. But sometimes, wasting a bit of time is fun.
It's interesting to me that these guys who keep being quoted on Dave's as they rebut or rebuke the Christian God, always seem painfully lacking in their knowledge of the Christian God.
For example, the whole "God can do anything so he could have made people that would be happy without free will" thing. Well, God cannot do anything. That was covered before on another thread when someone brought up the "Can God make a stone so big he can't move it?" That is nothing but a logical impossibility. It is the same as saying, "Can God do X and not do X at the same time?" God is subject to his own self and character. The Bible says that God cannot lie. It also says that he cannot disown himself. Omnipotence (in christianity) does not mean that God can do anything. It means He can do anything he wants or wills to do. But as God never wills to lie, he cannot do so. Perhaps God could have made beings that were happy and had no free will, maybe that's what animals are. But God made people with free will because that was his will.
And why did God make man? If he perfect he needs nothing. The guy in the article said, "There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do." Wow. A perfect being would be a do-nothing. Who knew I was so close to perfection? I feel sorry for someone who believes that being perfect means having no desires. Such a person knows nothing of Love. Parents do not have children because they are bored and lacking something (well, some probably do). They have children, not out of lack, but out of abundance. The love they have for another is such that they "desire" to create another being to share their love with. "Lovemaking" creates kids and Love created Man. If he sees the "desire" to share love as an imperfection, so be it. I, for one, do not see love as an imperfection.
What was God doing before he created man? Don't know, but don't see how it matters. Let's not forget that the Christian God also created time and is not bound by it, so I'm not sure how to go about answering a question that is based on our understanding of existence which takes place in time where "before" and "after" mean something.
He runs into this problem again when he says, "A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible." God does not know the "future" because for him, there is no such thing. To us, it is the future. To him, it is reality. Nothing "will happen". Being outside time he sees all of reality at a glance.
Does God judge people by what they believe rather than what they do? Yes and no. God judges people by what they do and they all come up short. The author says, "It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned." This often comes up and somehow the people who bring up this protest know people who are completely good but don't believe in the gospel. I would love to meet these perfect people who have not sinned. But there are none, of course. It's interesting that he mentions the gospel while talking about God being unjust. It is precisely because God is just that the gospel makes sense. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin. God loves sinful people but cannot wlecome them into His presence because they are sinful (here is another case that shows that God cannot do absolutely anything, but only that which is consistent with his character). No one can have a relationship with God because they have sin and God cannot accept, tolerate or overlook sin. That is why it was necessary for Jesus to die, so that the sin could be punished/destroyed without the person responsible for the sin being destoyed. Because God is just, he cannot let sin go unpunished. So, he made a way to punish the sin while sparing the sinner. So, does God judge by action or belief? He judges by action. All who have never sinned may enter his presence. If you are not one of those, you're in luck! God will allow you to enter his presence sin-free if you agree to let the One who did live a sinless life to take your sin on himself and bear the punishment for you. God is indeed just. His justice is why Jesus had to die inorder for Him to have mercy on sinful man. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
It's been a while since I've responded to one of these sorts of threads. I feel deep down that they are read by the same dozen people who, whichever side they are on, maintain their belief system after participating in these threads. So I usually decide I could better spend my time on other things. But sometimes, wasting a bit of time is fun.
It's interesting to me that these guys who keep being quoted on Dave's as they rebut or rebuke the Christian God, always seem painfully lacking in their knowledge of the Christian God.
For example, the whole "God can do anything so he could have made people that would be happy without free will" thing. Well, God cannot do anything. That was covered before on another thread when someone brought up the "Can God make a stone so big he can't move it?" That is nothing but a logical impossibility. It is the same as saying, "Can God do X and not do X at the same time?" God is subject to his own self and character. The Bible says that God cannot lie. It also says that he cannot disown himself. Omnipotence (in christianity) does not mean that God can do anything. It means He can do anything he wants or wills to do. But as God never wills to lie, he cannot do so. Perhaps God could have made beings that were happy and had no free will, maybe that's what animals are. But God made people with free will because that was his will.
And why did God make man? If he perfect he needs nothing. The guy in the article said, "There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do." Wow. A perfect being would be a do-nothing. Who knew I was so close to perfection? I feel sorry for someone who believes that being perfect means having no desires. Such a person knows nothing of Love. Parents do not have children because they are bored and lacking something (well, some probably do). They have children, not out of lack, but out of abundance. The love they have for another is such that they "desire" to create another being to share their love with. "Lovemaking" creates kids and Love created Man. If he sees the "desire" to share love as an imperfection, so be it. I, for one, do not see love as an imperfection.
What was God doing before he created man? Don't know, but don't see how it matters. Let's not forget that the Christian God also created time and is not bound by it, so I'm not sure how to go about answering a question that is based on our understanding of existence which takes place in time where "before" and "after" mean something.
He runs into this problem again when he says, "A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible." God does not know the "future" because for him, there is no such thing. To us, it is the future. To him, it is reality. Nothing "will happen". Being outside time he sees all of reality at a glance.
Does God judge people by what they believe rather than what they do? Yes and no. God judges people by what they do and they all come up short. The author says, "It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned." This often comes up and somehow the people who bring up this protest know people who are completely good but don't believe in the gospel. I would love to meet these perfect people who have not sinned. But there are none, of course. It's interesting that he mentions the gospel while talking about God being unjust. It is precisely because God is just that the gospel makes sense. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin. God loves sinful people but cannot wlecome them into His presence because they are sinful (here is another case that shows that God cannot do absolutely anything, but only that which is consistent with his character). No one can have a relationship with God because they have sin and God cannot accept, tolerate or overlook sin. That is why it was necessary for Jesus to die, so that the sin could be punished/destroyed without the person responsible for the sin being destoyed. Because God is just, he cannot let sin go unpunished. So, he made a way to punish the sin while sparing the sinner. So, does God judge by action or belief? He judges by action. All who have never sinned may enter his presence. If you are not one of those, you're in luck! God will allow you to enter his presence sin-free if you agree to let the One who did live a sinless life to take your sin on himself and bear the punishment for you. God is indeed just. His justice is why Jesus had to die inorder for Him to have mercy on sinful man. |
that was well said..
but get ready..
3
2
1
here comes the Dawkins Street gang! |
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GreenlightmeansGO
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Here are some points I think need reworking:
The language is sometimes emotive.
The matter of God creating perfect humans. It could still be argued that God created imperfect beings, with no intention of creating perfect beings. As far as I can see it is just assumed that humans were created to be perfect.
Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
The above argument depends on your definition or understanding of justice. Who is to say what is just or unjust? You could argue that our concepts of justice come from God and that our own justice systems should reflect God�s justice, but that this is not the case.
Still, I think these arguments are currently weak.
As for flakfizer's response: I think you're making a lot of that up through your own interpretations of the text. I am not convinced by your argument because it smells like deflection.
You are basically claiming to know how the 'mind' of God works, which - on another occasion - you would just as easily claim you are incapable of doing, when it suits you.
What is a sinner? With so many interpretations of 'God's perfect word' (the Bible) you can't really be sure, can you? |
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Kenny Kimchee
Joined: 12 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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That piece looks like it was written by someone who had just completed Theology 101.
This site is much better http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ |
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