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canuckistan
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, I've been reading this all over the place -- so probably will happen. Hallelujah! One good thing about a lawyer, they do respect both sides (usually) of anything.
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| One of Mr Obama's first acts could be to use the power of executive authority - which enables presidents to take action without an Act of Congress - to block the expansion of oil drilling in the Utah wilderness that Mr Bush authorize by executive order. He is also looking to use the same power to quickly lift the limits on stem cell research imposed by Mr Bush. |
This gets my goat. The moment he too uses this stupid and anti-democratic tool, he'll have a little more dirt on himself. Dirt that's not easy to wash off. I really will disagree with righting a wrong with a wrong. He should be smart enough to find other means (like the Senate, go figure) and to change the constitution with an amendment that would cut this presidential power from the tool kit.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I already showed how the talk about R. Gates signalled this...
Ddeubel: ours is a presidential/c-in-c system. We have granted presidents the authority to write executive orders, which do not apply society-wide, but rather to executive agencies and institutions, as well as the power to veto legislation (but not line-by-line, as some have asked for).
It is not "antidemocratic," but rather part of our presidential, republican democracy. The president's long-established and long-accepted prerogative. Before you denounce it so harshly, remember that H. Truman used this power to integrate the armed forces, thus taking an early step in promoting what would become the Civil Rights movement... |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| It is not "antidemocratic," but rather part of our presidential, republican democracy. The president's long-established and long-accepted prerogative. Before you denounce it so harshly, remember that H. Truman used this power to integrate the armed forces, thus taking an early step in promoting what would become the Civil Rights movement... |
Gopher, I do note the differences between a republican and other constitutional systems of governance. However, I do think that anything without the necessary checks and balances is undemocratic and also not what the founding fathers envisioned in terms of how things should work.
The Presidency has increased tremendously in power, the last part of this century. This is not an increase "towards" democracy.
These signing statements which Bush began to use addictively, side step the legal system (a check and balance) and really start making the U.S. look like a fiefdom. The excuse of "war" which Bush has used to get his own way - like a defiant child is indefensible IMO. Even if used in a "good" way -- there are better ways.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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The president does not need any other branch's approval to issue executive orders to the bureaucracy and the military and to conduct wars. Your vision exceeds the United States Constitution.
Your "better ways" remains entirely dependent on one's political perspective. W. Bush ran his wars his way; B. Obama will run them his own way. The choice mostly has to do with electing the person who you trust to run it your way, if at all. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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| It is not "antidemocratic," but rather part of our presidential, republican democracy. The president's long-established and long-accepted prerogative. Before you denounce it so harshly, remember that H. Truman used this power to integrate the armed forces, thus taking an early step in promoting what would become the Civil Rights movement... |
Gopher, I do note the differences between a republican and other constitutional systems of governance. However, I do think that anything without the necessary checks and balances is undemocratic and also not what the founding fathers envisioned in terms of how things should work.
The Presidency has increased tremendously in power, the last part of this century. This is not an increase "towards" democracy.
These signing statements which Bush began to use addictively, side step the legal system (a check and balance) and really start making the U.S. look like a fiefdom. The excuse of "war" which Bush has used to get his own way - like a defiant child is indefensible IMO. Even if used in a "good" way -- there are better ways.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
You should take a look at Mississippi burning.
Excellent movie about the excesses of the federal government during the Civil Rights movement. You would be surprised at who's civil rights were being violated.
You should be able to download it a real classic.
On Presidential power, Bushes use of these powers comes close to an LBJ/Nixonian level however no where near Eisenhower or Truman.
The most powerful President in History was FDR followed closely by Lincoln.
The Power of the Presidency can be checked through the constitutional powers vested in the Congress. If congress had wanted to rein in the president they would have done it as they did with Nixon. War powers legislation could have been passed to restrict and control the war. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Excellent movie about the excesses of the federal government during the Civil Rights movement. You would be surprised at who's civil rights were being violated.
You should be able to download it a real classic.
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You can count me as someone who wasn't overly impressed with the FBI agent's tactic of tying up the terrified Klan wizard, holding a razor up for him to see, and describing what a castrated black guy looks like.
I realize that the scene was pandering to liberals' repressed longing for vengeful bloodlust, and as such, made for great cinematic theater. Still not something I would really approve of. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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| It is not "antidemocratic," but rather part of our presidential, republican democracy. The president's long-established and long-accepted prerogative. Before you denounce it so harshly, remember that H. Truman used this power to integrate the armed forces, thus taking an early step in promoting what would become the Civil Rights movement... |
Gopher, I do note the differences between a republican and other constitutional systems of governance. However, I do think that anything without the necessary checks and balances is undemocratic and also not what the founding fathers envisioned in terms of how things should work.
The Presidency has increased tremendously in power, the last part of this century. This is not an increase "towards" democracy.
These signing statements which Bush began to use addictively, side step the legal system (a check and balance) and really start making the U.S. look like a fiefdom. The excuse of "war" which Bush has used to get his own way - like a defiant child is indefensible IMO. Even if used in a "good" way -- there are better ways.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
Note to Ddeubel: Bush is already half way out the door. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Note to Ddeubel: Bush is already half way out the door. |
Note to Kuros: Don't count what's in your hand until you have chopped down the bush.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with that, Ddeubel. W. Bush's executive orders will remain in place until B. Obama decides what to do with them. He seems likely to reverse some if not many. But he needs a fully-assembled national-security and legal team to do that.
And at the end of the day, he may decide to revalidate at least some of them. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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| Note to Ddeubel: Bush is already half way out the door. |
Note to Kuros: Don't count what's in your hand until you have chopped down the bush.
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Somehow that sounds lewd. |
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