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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:17 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Gord"]
| matthewwoodford wrote: |
Everyone knows they were fanatic b******s. Except you. You know better. In my unresearched opinion the Nazis were ***** as well.
I stand by my opinion, which is that you can't expect people to be grateful for benefits brought by invaders who make you kiss their boots. It's not human nature. Which is not the same as saying 'the old way where there was none of this was far better'. |
| Gord wrote: |
| Your opinion is based on a revisionist history. As well, I question the wisdom in suggesting that your unresearched position is wiser than my researched position. As well, many of us in this thread are of the same position as me, so please do not suggest that I stand alone without reason. |
Does anyone else wish to post as their opinion that the Japanese of the colonial period were *not* fanatical ****? Nationalist but nice? Cruel but kind?
| Gord wrote: |
| Although I am curious how you can explain why people were volunteering to join the Japanese military and were volunteering to head to Japan while the resistance movement in Korea drafted people by having their people spend time in bars with unknowing recruits and then saying "you've been seen in public with us. Now either join us or we'll make sure the Japanese military thinks you're part of the resistance and you will be jailed and we'll make sure that the resistance considers you a traitor and your family will be killed." |
Desperate people. I find that totally believable. Nowadays they would be classed as terrorists if our governments happened to want to support the Japanese or freedom fighters if not.
| Gord wrote: |
| Oh, wait. You don't read about that, do you? Sort of a little secret that doesn't get talked about because in your revised history you only hear that everyone resisted the Japanese and the resistance was a proud movement based on the backs of brave volunteers. Yep. Big lie. |
You are shadow-boxing. Don't confuse me with your own shadow: I said nothing about the resistance movement or lack of it in the Japanese colonial period. But now that you mention it...
Resistance, to my knowledge, was hopeless within Korea and pretty hopeless outside of it although nationalists/patriots obviously had a freer hand and made governments in exile. As I'm sure you know.
300,000 is a very large number of people to have volunteered. But why did they volunteer? Did they genuinely feel they shared in the reflected glory of Japan? Perhaps many did. Do you know how many Irishmen have volunteered to serve under the British flag in the past? Perhaps they loved the British empire too but I'd like to see a *lot* of evidence in support before accepting that conclusion. And just try telling Irish people that British colonialism was good because it brought industrialisation (true) and the Irish were happy because thousands voluntarily joined the army (also true).
I know comparisons are odious and all that but it shows you have to be careful what conclusions you draw. I suspect people join the army for similar reasons all over the world and it's not as if the Irish or Koreans could have volunteered for someone else's army. As far as Koreans knew they were under Japan's rule for good.
Well this debate has been food for thought and shows it's not all black and white so thanks for that. You'll still need to turn history upside down before you convince me the Japanese were misunderstood, benevolent despots. |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
The Koreans countered with the claim that the treaty was forced, and therefore invalid. The british delegation and others rejected this line of reasoning as Japan's actions were inline with the practices of the time.
The issue was decided by a show of hands. By a overwhelming majority it was decided that the annexation was legal.
The Koreans who organized the conference refused to release a statement about the result (the conference was a year long!) as is usual practice, as the result didnt conform to their ideological agenda.
Needless to say, it wasnt reported in the Korean media. Just imagine the fuss if it had gone the other way!
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It was all fine and legal. Well that's ok then...
Er...it was a different world back then? The *british* decided it was ok for Japan to colonize Korea!!!! Hey, I wonder why that was!! Funny that when almost the entire world was parcelled out between the colonial powers people thought colonialism was justified - it brought benefits to the colonized! Racism was also 'inline with the' thinking 'of the time'.
What's really disturbing is seeing people *today*, apparently uninfluenced either by self-interest or current political thinking, who also think colonialism was justified. It's as if you have no belief in democracy or self-determination whatsoever, as if we haven't progressed at all since the 19th century.
I'm trying to imagine what sort of thought process led up to this. Perhaps it was like this: you grew up thinking colonialism was plain bad, never questioned it, then one day picked up a book and read that colonialism brought modernisation. You realised you had been lied to!!! From that time on you engaged in a crusade on the internet to enlighten others. You found some other enlightened souls but, curiously, many attacked your views. This was still further proof of the insidious power of the false view of history so many have naively accepted and only strengthens your determination to tell the truth.
Am I near the mark?  |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Eariier in this thread, Gord said that the 1919 uprising was simply a small group of fanatical Christians who wanted to impose a "theocracy" on Korea. It was at least the second time that someone had played the "Christian" card on this thread, apparently hoping to conjure up images of the rebels as a bunch of kimchee Koreshes, whom the enlightened Japanese valiantly struggled to thwart.
Leaving aside the question of how much interest the Emperor-worshipping Japanese, with their mania for putting up Shinto temples all over the place, really had in creating an enlightened secular Korea, I think Gord's characterization of the 1919 movement was a bit of an oversimplication. Here is an article I found:
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/korea/history/march_1st_independence_struggle.htm
According to this article, the movement drew support from not only Christians, but Buddhists, Confucians, and student groups. The article also mentions the efforts(largely unsuccesful) made by nationalist groups to secure support from world leaders(most notably Woodrow Wilson) at the time of the 1919 Paris Peace conference. This would seem to belie the notion of the nationalists as just a bunch of crazies hollering away in a church somewhwere.
Speaking of churches, here is the article's description of an incident which took place during the uprising:
| Quote: |
Defining any Korean taking part in the independence resistance as a criminal, the Japanese decided to cope with subsequent demonstrations by a policy of massacre. A case at Suwon, Kyonggi-do province, was typical. On April 15 that year, a squad of Japanese troops ordered about 30 villagers to assemble in a Christian church, closed all the windows and doors, then set the building afire. While the church burned for five hours, the Japanese soldiers aimed a concentrated barrage at the confined civilians, killing all of them, including women and infants. The Japanese soldiers also burned 31 houses in the village, then set fire to 317 houses in 15 villages in the vicinity. Informed of the incident, F.W. Schofield, a Canadian missionary, and other American missionaries visited the scene of the incident on April 17, personally viewing the traces of Japanese atrocities, and informed the world of what they had seen.
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Regardless of what you think about the ideology of the 1919 nationalists, or about how much support they actually had from the general population, it shouldn't be too tall an order to imagine that a foreign army which behaved in the fashion described above would attract the animosity of at least SOME people in the colony.
Last edited by On the other hand on Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Well matt, unfortunately you only have your opinions to go on, and they are baseless. You havent disputed what I said with facts - only with streams of sarcasm. If you have secret knowledge that can free me of the burden of my obviously wrong headed belief, then please tell me. Im literally dribbling with anticipation awaiting my edification. |
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Dan
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Sunny Glendale, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:24 am Post subject: |
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despite everything shalakalaka has said, Japan is hated throughout much of Asia even still. the old wounds have died down some, but there is no denying Japan's imperial past.
And there is no question that the Japanese killed thousands and thousands of those people they were trying to enlighten with their culture. |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dan wrote: |
despite everything shalakalaka has said, Japan is hated throughout much of Asia even still. the old wounds have died down some, but there is no denying Japan's imperial past.
And there is no question that the Japanese killed thousands and thousands of those people they were trying to enlighten with their culture. |
Using your logic Dan, we could say the same about the States.
OTOH, sorry, I should have been clearer.
What I was trying to say by 'preaching to the choir' was that I think everyone agrees that Japanese occupation was not a good thing.
I think what Shakuhachi and Gord are trying to say that it wasn't as bad as what many Koreans claim today. There is a lot of misinformation out there.
If I am wrong about there motives, I apologize.
Interesting nonetheless |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Matko wrote:
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| There is a lot of misinformation out there. |
Indeed there is..on both sides in this case. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:16 am Post subject: Loving It...! |
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Wow.. this thing just goes on and on doesn't it?
Not in any particular direction though had anyone noticed? Round and round we go....
I'm interested to learn that you're a white, Australian Shak...
Someone like yourself (who provides such impeccable research  ) must be aware of the current History Wars back home? Interesting, and compelling parallels I think. The same arguments with a different backdrop. Maybe post-colonial experiences are the same no matter where they occur?
Unfortunately, all I hear is sound and fury (and we all know what that signifies). To my mind you and Gordy are coming off all very Geoffrey Blainey, and Piers Akerman respectively. Both intelligent men whose motivations are just utterly beyond my understanding.
It's just my assesment of the debate and your roles in it. I'm not asking for you to agree (and I feel sure that you wont), but I'm curious to hear what you have to say about the comparison.
Cheers
Another Australian (not white)
PS
You were a Young Liberal right?  |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand these personal attacks.
I think Shakuhachi has been very informative. Why do people who don't agree with him, post arguements instead of insults?
I don't get it?
I am a white Canadian who has lived in both countries. I have absolutely no interest in seeing either side 'win'
I have noticed , however, that the posters attacking Shakuhachi have not really disproved his hypothesis. Too much 'emotion' not enough evidence.
Like I said, I have no ulterior motives here. Just interested. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I gave up on pushing my side of the argument a few pages ago (and I'm glad as it seems to be repeating) but...
| Quote: |
| apparently hoping to conjure up images of the rebels as a bunch of kimchee Koreshes |
...at least it's become entertaining.  |
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Donghae
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Location: Fukuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
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| But aside from that, you've made your point, have maybe gained support from some who needed little convincing anyway but have made no impression at all on plenty of other readers. Do you really have anything NEW to say? |
Ill be happy if people have all the information they need to make up their own minds. Despite my poor essay writing and debating skills, I think I have been able to provide some useful information. I guess your last question is a round-a-bout way of saying "shut up". |
I wasn't saying that at all, again you jump easily to the wrong conclusion. Your own emotional attachment is clearly pretty strong. (And incidentally, my handle makes me look Korean no more than yours makes you look Japanese) Of course I was somewhat dubious that you had anything new to offer and indeed you don't appear to. I must say I'm a little amused by you again praising yourself for "educating" us all! Keeping an open mind, like you advise, perhaps I was wrong about your excessive modesty.
I've never called you a xenophobe nor accused you of being like Ishihara, who you said you didn't know much about anyway. You had plenty of chance to distance yourself from the clearly xenophobic views of this man who, as I said and you yourself agreed, has made the same claims as you are doing now, but chose to duck that. 'Don't believe it until it's denied' springs to mind - well, I never actually accused you but you just denied it anyway!
All the people I've ever come across making the kind of claims you make have either been right-wing Japanese (or Japanophile) history revisionists or people with some particular grudge against Korea(ns), or of course both. Obviously, I wouldn't expect you to admit it and I note there's an "I actually like Koreans" (yeah, right...) somewhere up there. But I wonder if you can convince the many that need convincing that neither of these categories apply to you.
And 'convince' is surely the key word. I respect your right to hold whatever views you wish. But, like it or not, you hold a view not many share, neither in Japan nor elsewhere, and even if your views WERE more popular in Japan, you're not addressing a Japanese audience here. So in spite of all your links to right-wing revisionist sites, your bluster about your own "facts" and "evidence", which if really so should speak for itself without the need for you to keep calling it "fact" or "evidence", and your claims of mere sarcasm and name-calling from those opposed to you here, the onus is clearly on you to convince the majority of your minority viewpoint.
I, and I'm sure many others, somewhat doubt your ability to do so, so it might be best for you to just pat yourself on the back for 'providing some useful information', 'starting an aducational thread', 'opening up a few minds' (or whatever, I'm sure you can come up with an original way of saying it) and give it a rest. However, don't misinterpret that again as a call for you to shut up; if you really want to keep trying, then go for it.........ganbatte ne! |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't saying that at all, again you jump easily to the wrong conclusion. Your own emotional attachment is clearly pretty strong. (And incidentally, my handle makes me look Korean no more than yours makes you look Japanese) Of course I was somewhat dubious that you had anything new to offer and indeed you don't appear to. I must say I'm a little amused by you again praising yourself for "educating" us all! Keeping an open mind, like you advise, perhaps I was wrong about your excessive modesty.
I've never called you a xenophobe nor accused you of being like Ishihara, who you said you didn't know much about anyway. You had plenty of chance to distance yourself from the clearly xenophobic views of this man who, as I said and you yourself agreed, has made the same claims as you are doing now, but chose to duck that. 'Don't believe it until it's denied' springs to mind - well, I never actually accused you but you just denied it anyway!
All the people I've ever come across making the kind of claims you make have either been right-wing Japanese (or Japanophile) history revisionists or people with some particular grudge against Korea(ns), or of course both. Obviously, I wouldn't expect you to admit it and I note there's an "I actually like Koreans" (yeah, right...) somewhere up there. But I wonder if you can convince the many that need convincing that neither of these categories apply to you.
And 'convince' is surely the key word. I respect your right to hold whatever views you wish. But, like it or not, you hold a view not many share, neither in Japan nor elsewhere, and even if your views WERE more popular in Japan, you're not addressing a Japanese audience here. So in spite of all your links to right-wing revisionist sites, your bluster about your own "facts" and "evidence", which if really so should speak for itself without the need for you to keep calling it "fact" or "evidence", and your claims of mere sarcasm and name-calling from those opposed to you here, the onus is clearly on you to convince the majority of your minority viewpoint.
I, and I'm sure many others, somewhat doubt your ability to do so, so it might be best for you to just pat yourself on the back for 'providing some useful information', 'starting an aducational thread', 'opening up a few minds' (or whatever, I'm sure you can come up with an original way of saying it) and give it a rest. However, don't misinterpret that again as a call for you to shut up; if you really want to keep trying, then go for it.........ganbatte ne! |
Since you have stated in a previous post that you have neither the time or inclination to research the subject, all you have given me is your own opinion. I can only think that your continued participation in this discussion is in bad faith. Your continuous Ad Hominem attacks on me are the strategy of the intellectually defeated.
You have made clear attempts to link me with the Japanese right-wing by claiming that the only links I posted were to right wing sites. Out of all the sites I linked, only one might be considered "right wing" (by you, not by me). Again, anyone can look at the links on my previous posts to confirm this. I dont know much about the Japanese right wing - its irrelevant to the subject at hand.
I dont think I could convince someone with as much anti-Japanese predjudice as you about this subject. I feel sorry for the Japanese who are unfortunate to have you as a "guest" in their country.
You arent part of that "Issho Kikaku" mob, are you? |
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Donghae
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Location: Fukuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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ALL your links were to right-wing sites? No, never said that. But you did post stuff that could be so considered as you yourself acknowledge. I note that the Japanese right-wing, like so much else inconvenient to your case, is something you insist you "dont know much about". And, BTW, it was the truth of what you claim about yourself I said I had neither the time nor inclination to research.
Me, I've lived fairly happily in Japan, not just "briefly" but for many years, and still do, have overwhelmingly Japanese friends here and have striven as hard to learn their language and integrate as anyone in such a position. So "anti-Japanese", eh? Sorry if you don't like the company you're in, but I've only ever heard that and the 'you're just a "guest" in the country' one from the right-wing whitewash brigade. So what was that you were saying about continuous name-calling and the intellectually defeated? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Donghae wrote: |
| So what was that you were saying about continuous name-calling and the intellectually defeated? |
Actually, he was politely questioning why you were giving us your opinion that you have not researched, nor are you now willing to research to back up your now formed opinion, despite the evidence presented that directly contradicts your current opinion which you attempt to discredit with insults coupled with personal attacks against us personally rather than the addressing the discussion at hand. |
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Donghae
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Location: Fukuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Actually your interpretation of "politely" is one plenty would disagree with. And, I'm sure plenty would agree that I've insulted him no more or less than he me and others.
I see too that you seem to share his trait of either not reading others' posts carefully enough before making your own, or jumping to hasty conclusions. The latter you have certainly done in saying "your opinion that you have neither researched nor are willing to research" since it is only the truth of his background I declare myself unwilling to bother myself with, as I re-stated above. Others may have declared their opinions unresearched, I didn't. It's ok, no apology necessary, it's been a long thread and one clearly now well past its use-by date, and which isn't really going anywhere from here. |
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