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Comma between adjectives
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maddog



Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: Comma between adjectives Reply with quote

Is it necessary to place a comma between adjectives. For example, do you need a comma in the sentence, "Children who are exposed to bloody violent video games are more likely to commit violent acts"?
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antoniothegreat



Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would think it is like any list, if there are more than two, add a comma.

so, the fat tall man was angry.
but, the fat, tall, hairy man was angry.

i am not really sure though, just a guess, i tend, to, overuse, commas...
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maddog



Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antoniothegreat wrote:
i would think it is like any list, if there are more than two, add a comma.

so, the fat tall man was angry.
but, the fat, tall, hairy man was angry.

i am not really sure though, just a guess, i tend, to, overuse, commas...


I tend to do the opposite. If it makes sense without commas it's fines as it is.
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Darkray16



Joined: 09 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say no.

I use the above posters' method, if it makes sense without a comma I don't use one. In that specific case though in Italian they definitely don't use a comma and Italian and English has the same grammatical rules.
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TeeBee



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think commas should be used sparingly, but they do have an important role to play in this context.

In the example sentence you used ("Children who are exposed to bloody violent video games are more likely to commit violent acts") without the comma between "bloody" and "violent", "bloody" can be read as an adverb modifying the adjective "violent". So basically "bloody violent" means "very violent", as "bloody" is used in that sense in British English (as in "fu**ing violent" game)

If you insert a comma between "bloody" and "violent", then you indicate that they are separate descriptions - the game is both bloody and violent, not just bloody violent.

Whether you use a comma or not depends on what your intended meaning is.
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emilylovesyou



Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: here

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Teebee: in the case of the sentence from the OP, if it's meant to be bloody (showing lots of blood) and violent, it should read "bloody, violent video game". However I would write "The fat, tall man was angry" because when I say the sentence I naturally pause there.

I think grammatically you should always put commas in to separate each adjective ("The big, fat, black cat walked by.").

If you are having students read something, I would put the comma in so they learn where natural pauses are in the English language, instead of having them say "The bigfatblackcat walked by".
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Confused Canadian



Joined: 21 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to this page:

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/GRAMMAR/adjectives.htm

Quote:

It would be folly, of course, to run more than two or three (at the most) adjectives together. Furthermore, when adjectives belong to the same class, they become what we call coordinated adjectives, and you will want to put a comma between them: the inexpensive, comfortable shoes. The rule for inserting the comma works this way: if you could have inserted a conjunction � and or but � between the two adjectives, use a comma. We could say these are "inexpensive but comfortable shoes," so we would use a comma between them (when the "but" isn't there). When you have three coordinated adjectives, separate them all with commas, but don't insert a comma between the last adjective and the noun (in spite of the temptation to do so because you often pause there):

a popular, respected, and good looking student


Basically, my understanding is that if the adjectives belong to the same class:

Quote:
1. Determiners � articles and other limiters. See Determiners
2. Observation � postdeterminers and limiter adjectives (e.g., a real hero, a perfect idiot) and adjectives subject to subjective measure (e.g., beautiful, interesting)
3. Size and Shape � adjectives subject to objective measure (e.g., wealthy, large, round)
4. Age � adjectives denoting age (e.g., young, old, new, ancient)
5. Color � adjectives denoting color (e.g., red, black, pale)
6. Origin � denominal adjectives denoting source of noun (e.g., French, American, Canadian)
7. Material � denominal adjectives denoting what something is made of (e.g., woolen, metallic, wooden)
8. Qualifier � final limiter, often regarded as part of the noun (e.g., rocking chair, hunting cabin, passenger car, book cover)


then you need a comma. If they come from different classes, then you don't need a comma.
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Teelo



Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Location: Wellington, NZ

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, don't, even, know, what, a, comma, is, or, when, to, use, one.
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ReeseDog



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkray16 wrote:
I would say no.

I use the above posters' method, if it makes sense without a comma I don't use one. In that specific case though in Italian they definitely don't use a comma and Italian and English has the same grammatical rules.


Umm...I don't speak Italian, but I have pretty good French and damn good Spanish, so I have a fair idea about the grammar of the Romance language group. I would say that it's an incorrect statement to posit that Italian and English share the same grammar.

Anyway, consider the OP's sample sentence, and while you do, consider the possible meaning to a speaker of British English. See any problems? Hint: Consider bloody used in the sentence as an expletive.

"Use a comma between coordinate adjectives - that is, adjectives that separately modify the same noun."
~ MLA Handbook
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SharkDiver



Joined: 08 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good explanation TeeBee.

Coordinate adjectives need a comma in between them. If you can change the order of the adjectives around and get the same meaning then they are coordinate adjectives.
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ardis



Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would definitely include a comma between "bloody" and "violent." Otherwise, I would read it as "bloody violent" as in..."freaking violent" or "damn violent."

It always annoyed me when my college friends had me read their papers and they left out important commas. Writing something like, "It's a beautiful nice warm day out" just looks like a person never left elementary school. "It's a beautiful, nice, warm day out."
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WK2008



Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: Jeonju

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ardis wrote:
Writing something like, "It's a beautiful nice warm day out" just looks like a person never left elementary school. "It's a beautiful, nice, warm day out."

Good example. These are coordinate adjectives, since we can change the order and it means the same thing: "It's a nice, warm, beautiful day out." Another test is that you can put "and" between them: "It's a beautiful and nice and warm day out." The adjectives independently modify the noun, not each other. The logical structure is [[beautiful][nice][warm][day]]

The non-coordinate case is where you use adjectives in a cumulative (or hierarchical) way. It changes the meaning (or doesn't make sense) to change the order, e.g., "She loves her roommate's tasty creme brouillet." We can't change the order of the modifiers and have it make sense. "She loves her roommate's creme tasty brouillet" is no good. While this next one makes sense, we've changed the meaning: "She loves her tasty roommate's creme brouillet." The logical structure of the original is [[her[roommate's]][tasty[creme-brouillet]]]. You can see the structural difference a bit more clearly if we simplify the original sentence to: "Mary loves her tasty creme brouillet." Here we get the structure [her[tasty[creme-brouillet]]], or perhaps [her[tasty[creme[brouillet]]]].

Finally, life is not so simple as the above, of course, and so there is also the case of coordinating and cumulative adjectives together, such as, "She loves her roommate's ice-cold, tasty creme brouillet." Here we have the coordinating adjectives "ice-cold" and "tasty." These two words must be separated by commas, but the rest is cumulative, so no commas.

This is a lot easier to teach in person, but hopefully that makes sense.
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maddog



Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused Canadian wrote:
According to this page:

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/GRAMMAR/adjectives.htm

Quote:

It would be folly, of course, to run more than two or three (at the most) adjectives together. Furthermore, when adjectives belong to the same class, they become what we call coordinated adjectives, and you will want to put a comma between them: the inexpensive, comfortable shoes. The rule for inserting the comma works this way: if you could have inserted a conjunction � and or but � between the two adjectives, use a comma. We could say these are "inexpensive but comfortable shoes," so we would use a comma between them (when the "but" isn't there). When you have three coordinated adjectives, separate them all with commas, but don't insert a comma between the last adjective and the noun (in spite of the temptation to do so because you often pause there):

a popular, respected, and good looking student


Basically, my understanding is that if the adjectives belong to the same class:

Quote:
1. Determiners � articles and other limiters. See Determiners
2. Observation � postdeterminers and limiter adjectives (e.g., a real hero, a perfect idiot) and adjectives subject to subjective measure (e.g., beautiful, interesting)
3. Size and Shape � adjectives subject to objective measure (e.g., wealthy, large, round)
4. Age � adjectives denoting age (e.g., young, old, new, ancient)
5. Color � adjectives denoting color (e.g., red, black, pale)
6. Origin � denominal adjectives denoting source of noun (e.g., French, American, Canadian)
7. Material � denominal adjectives denoting what something is made of (e.g., woolen, metallic, wooden)
8. Qualifier � final limiter, often regarded as part of the noun (e.g., rocking chair, hunting cabin, passenger car, book cover)


then you need a comma. If they come from different classes, then you don't need a comma.


Thanks. That clears it up very well indeed.

Also, even though I'm a Brit, I never thought about the potential misinterpretation of 'bloody'. Well spotted.
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SharkDiver



Joined: 08 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man WK2008, that was a bloody good, comprehensive presentation. Hey, did I place the commas correctly? This time the cumulative modifier "bloody good" is on a larger scale a coordinate adjective.

You should teach teachers or write a grammar book.
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WK2008



Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: Jeonju

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the encouragement, SharkDiver. You got your commas correct in "bloody good, comprehensive presentation." However, you missed one after "Man."

So, "Man, WK2008, that was a ..."

Again, thanks for the encouragement. I do love to teach and write, which is why I'm here in Jeonju at Jeonbuk Dehakkyo.
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