Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Ya-ta Boy]

[Gopher]

[Jandar]

[Jandar]

On the question of torture.

As a normal course of training our Soldiers and Marines are put through tests
of endurance which include certain deprivations, food, water, sleep and others.

Do we then say this is torture?

Are we torturing our soldiers in training?

Can we apply the same level of "training" for prisoners under question?

Is any form of interrogation torture?

[Gopher]

I have asked for specifics since page one, Jandar. No luck so far.

[Jandar]

Why is standing for more than 4 hours considered torture?

Why is the absence of light considered torture?

If loud noise/music is torture, I've been tortured every day in Korea.

Can ones fear of the truth be considered a Phobia that cannot be exploited?

A hard bed is considered torture, come on these people sleep on the floor back home.

[MrMr]

An interesting and well written debate by obviously well-educated and well-researched individuals. My offering is an opinion based only on speculation.
The idea of a commission or any type of investigation or prosecution against Bush and his regime would recieve very little play within America if he had quickly won his unjust war with Iraq. No matter how many innocent civilian casulties there, or in further bombings of villages in Afghanistan and Pakistan(in support of his "War" on Terror), no matter how many people illegally tortured or detained, all would have been over looked by most Americans had Bush delivered on his braggadocio with a decisive victory. Indeed, he'd have been feted and commended for his fortitude and leadership by the vast majority of Americans who initially supported this war.
Sadly, The Bush Administration is not unpopular in America because of their immorality but because America is now suffering from their incompetence with the lost lives of their young soldiers and the monetary costs of supporting the war in Iraq.
There will be no official indictment or investigation of Bush or cohorts. "Show trials," "crude knowledge/power play" are only rammed down the throats of the people of conquered or occupied territories

[Kuros]

[Ya-ta Boy]

[Gopher]

[Gopher]

War is hell. Clich�, of course. But nonetheless true.

Here is an update on the war and it includes more crimes that we ought to see accounted for. I trust everyone is already familiar with N. Berg and related cases from 9/11 to the present-day. Let us turn now to India...

[mises]

[Jandar]

^^^^^^^^^^^

[The Bobster]

1. The fact that our enemies commit atrocities in the furtherance of their goals does not mean that we need to, or should. The test of whether an action would be engaged is whether it is effective, whether it achieves the goal desired at the time it is carried out and also whether it achieves larger goals of the campaign. Enhanced interrogation techniques, indiscriminate civilian casualties, incarceration without process, spying on citizens without judicial oversight - many other atrocities and infractions committed by our side that have already been mentioned � these things work counter to our goals because a) recruitment of more fanatical extremists is the most likely result, and b) our side ultimately becomes more similar to the worst characteristics of our foes.

2. I think the goal of a truth commission ought to be first to determine what exactly happened, and next to make some surmises about where responsibility lies. The purpose of the first part is to see that heinous actions that have already occurred do not get repeated, and the purpose of the latter is part of that need not be any eventual prosecution, but simply to see that those involved no longer be allowed a place in the further movements of public policy � this is not retribution, just pragmatism: we have an administration elected on a platform of change AND bipartisanship, and there is no sense at all in supposing that real change can happen is the same or similar people are allowed positions of responsibility.

3. There us very little benefit to be found in leaving the questions we have now for posterity and historians to examine at some time decades in the future when documents that are classified become available for scrutiny, and there is plenty of risk that in the intervening years more and worse of the same might transpire. It�s not a necessary risk. It is avoidable, if we decide that we want real change.

4. There IS risk that such a probe could damage impulses now underway for bipartisanship in pursuit of presently-pressing problems, but it doesn�t have to be that way. There have been other such fact-finding projects in the past (the 9/11Commission has been mentioned a few times already) so it is not a question that needs to prevent us from finding out what we want to know, and what we need to know.

5. Requests from members of this forum for proof or specifics of allegations made, frankly, bore me � it is precisely the goal of a Truth Commission to find such evidence, and at this time we are discussion whether such an investigation is a beneficial course.

6. One suspects that a lot of the opposition to a Truth Commission stems from what I�ve elsewhere called The Bart Simpson Defense: They didn�t do it, no one saw them do it, and no one can prove a thing � with the cute tautological addendum that since guilty verdicts have not been handed down so far, it therefore follows that no such evidence CAN be found, and so what is left is legal innocence, and anything further is just maneuvering, witch-hunts and attempts to control the political agenda. As I said, it�s all very cute, but it�s also self-serving, convenient, and represents an obstacle to exactly the kind of change that so many voters said they wanted at the start of this month.

7. Participants in this discussion who have spoken in favor of the rule of law are, of course, spot on and it�s unsurprising that any of their erstwhile opponents or detractors have said a thing on the subject. In this case, there is plenty make everyone unhappy, though: for those of us on the left, the thought of immunity for criminal behavior is repugnant; and for those on the right, the hideousness of the conservative and neoconservative agenda will be exposed to the eyes of the world and history. The easy thing would be to just go on about our business and ignore what has already happened, but sometimes the most useful thing is not the easy thing.

And inquiring minds want to know. What happened, and how can we stop it from recurring?

[sojourner1]

No one in high places or were in high places will be held accountable, but average knuckle head American will be responsible and pay for our Bush administrations' boondoggle in the long run.

I felt since 2002 that Bush should be impeached and sent home with a negative bank account and no golden parachute. That's how bad of a president he really was for us. And it was so obvious from the get go that he was incompetent to lead America. It was only a good ol' boys club thing and many under him were dysfunctional too. What we have is a great country that had it all going for her, run aground due to dysfunctional incompetent leadership that now needs to be fixed or converted to socialism.