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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| There is no argument about HIV isolation. |
That is in fact what we're arguing about. You may leave the thread if you'd like. |
This is a creationist tactic. "Teach the controversy. Since we're talking about it there must be a controversy." There is no argument within science about HIV isolation and HIV's role in AIDS. A Nobel was awarded for isolation. Photos have been taken. The virus has been genetically sequenced.
That you or cornfed can present NO peer reviewed papers casting doubt on these three claims seems to me there is no argument. Either in science or here. There's the evidence I have presented and mere hand waving counter claims. Does that even constitute an argument? One *teachers* should aspire to?
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| Have you shown a picture of the isolated virus? |
Ummm. Yeah.
Is the CIHR working with the CDC to pass off fakes?
http://www.cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/28579.html
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HIV-budding-Color.jpg
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| Scanning electron micrograph of HIV-1 budding from cultured lymphocyte. This image has been colored to highlight important features; see PHIL 1197 for original black and white view of this image. Multiple round bumps on cell surface represent sites of assembly and budding of virions. |
Oddly this is an often reproduced photo on wiki and yet no one has challenged it in the discussion:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image_talk:HIV-budding-Color.jpg&action=edit
How is scanning electron microscope photo of a virus not a valid way to image a virus? Cornfed makes this claim but does not back it with *any* peer reviewed information, not even a textbook citation.
What is the goal post used by virologists and how does this photo not pass that goal post? Cite your references, not your expertise as an ESL teacher. |
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Cornfed
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Koveras, Cornfed
Do you believe any virus has been isolated in the last decade? If yes, can you post a link to a paper that describes the method used to isolate that virus? |
Presumably you can search the online resources as well as we can. However, papers published in journals are generally the results of highly specific experiments and are not likely to give you a good overview. If you really want to get insight you should go and read about virus isolation in text books in a science library. This will help you understand not only how it's generally done but, equally importantly, why logically it should be done that way. Then you could compare it to HIV "isolation" and ask yourself why this virus should be so special that they can't use the normal methods.
You could also read about the mechanism by which viruses infect host cells, cause diseases and propagate in susceptible populations. I expect that if you continue to read around the issue the truth of the situation will one day hit you like a ton of bricks.
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| There is no argument within science about HIV isolation and HIV's role in AIDS. |
On the Virusmyth site you will find various critics of the HIV theory, including Nobel prize winner and PCR inventor Kary Mullis. It is quite likely that there are more critics in the scientific community than direct proponents. Most scientist do not of course directly investigate matters like this themselves but take issues on trust, so if you get enough funding and publicity behind a particular agenda you can pull pretty much any scam. In fact if you read the latest offerings by AIDS hoax co-founders Gallo and Montagnier, even they seem to be backing away from the mainstream position.
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| A Nobel was awarded for isolation. Photos have been taken. |
To my knowledge, no photos of any isolated and crystallized virus has been taken. If you are referring to the Nobel prize awarded to Montagnier, as I have pointed out, even he admits that he never isolated the virus. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Cornfed wrote: |
| Presumably you can search the online resources as well as we can. |
You dodge yet again.
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| On the Virusmyth site you will find various critics of the HIV theory, including Nobel prize winner and PCR inventor Kary Mullis. |
What has he published on the subject in peer reviewed journals? There's no debate unless you're publishing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#AIDS_denialism
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| Mullis has also drawn controversy for his association with prominent AIDS denialist Peter Duesberg and his rejection of the evidence that HIV causes AIDS.[11] At a 1994 conference in Toledo, Spain, Mullis changed the topic of his speech at the last minute, and instead lectured the crowd on his idea that HIV does not cause AIDS. According to The New York Times, his supporting slides were "photographs he had taken of naked women with colored lights projected on their bodies."[4] |
Uh huh.
To cite the NY Times article:
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| Asked why people should accept his views on AIDS when he has no standing as a virologist, he replies, ''I don't care, I'm on my vacation life here.'' |
Wow. What a scientific approach. He's really got nothing, does he?
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| In fact if you read the latest offerings by AIDS hoax co-founders Gallo and Montagnier, even they seem to be backing away from the mainstream position. |
Claim. Evidence?
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| Quote: |
| A Nobel was awarded for isolation. Photos have been taken. |
To my knowledge, no photos of any isolated and crystallized virus has been taken. If you are referring to the Nobel prize awarded to Montagnier, as I have pointed out, even he admits that he never isolated the virus. |
You're back to simply repeating your claim. I'll ask again. Maybe you'll answer this time: where in the literature does it state this is the only method to photograph a virus? Could you cite anything where Montagnier claims he did not isolate HIV?
Do you even understand the concept of documenting your claims? You'll notice I do.
I'll repeat again:
1) You need to cite the scientific papers that establish the photos I've posted of HIV were not photographed using a method virologists require to take "true" virus photos.
2) You need to cite scientific papers that establish the sequencing of HIV has in fact sequenced nothing. (Merely saying they've not done this is not scientific evidence, it's just a claim. Do you let your students make fantastic claims and not back them with evidence?)
3) You need to find me some virologists, like you claimed, who are part of the perth group (the founder doesn't even have a phd! she was a hospital tech!).
To quote you:
Where are the virologists in that bunch? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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bump
Cornfed is this too difficult for someone who claims to have two science degrees? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: |
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bump again.
I wanna hear cornfed's rebuttal. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Let me be clear about point number one. Some place in the published scientific literature there's a protocol for the One True Way to photograph a virus. It seems to me this should be rather readily available on the net. Someone with two science degrees should be able to find it. Google or pubmed. It must be in pubmed. Seems a terribly valuable tool to biomedical research.
So, I would like to see why an electron scanning microscope photo the CDC says in peer reviewed research is a photograph of hiv budding off a cell is in fact not a valid photo of HIV according to the goal post set by virology and this gold standard cornfed keeps waving his hand at.
I've asked him this 4 or 5 times now and he returns with the same answer: take it on my authority (he's only demonstrated he's a working ESL teacher) and he makes sweeping references to a vast conspiracy.
I expect him to duck again. He's got nothing. He's offered nothing. If he had something, he would have posted it long, long ago. |
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gangpae
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Mindmetoo you are a Supreme Scientist and surely worthy of public adulation. Bye the bye I took a gander at your peer reviewed photo and fmd if 2 of the little hiv guys didn't look exactly the same. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| gangpae wrote: |
| Mindmetoo you are a Supreme Scientist and surely worthy of public adulation. Bye the bye I took a gander at your peer reviewed photo and fmd if 2 of the little hiv guys didn't look exactly the same. |
You've said exactly nothing. |
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gangpae
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Exactly what you do all the time. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| gangpae wrote: |
| Exactly what you do all the time. |
Well isn't that nice. Someone still using the 14 year old 'say exactly what he said back to him' arguing device. Good for you.
Let me guess, you know what he is, but what are you? |
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gangpae
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| So says the sock. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| gangpae wrote: |
| So says the sock. |
The internet equivalent of the 14 year old argument.
You should meet Bramble. She too has a paranoia sock thing going on. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| gangpae wrote: |
| Exactly what you do all the time. |
I'm interested in any peer reviewed research you can post on the matter. Your hand having is merely churning the same dull air cornfed churned for several pages. |
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gangpae
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| hand having? |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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