Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Another weight training thread...
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
afsjesse



Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Location: Kickin' it in 'Kato town.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Another weight training thread... Reply with quote

So I'm inspired by the weight training thread and after reading all of those helpful posts and links I have some questions about my workout routine.

Im 24, weigh 103 kilos and am 6 feet tall. I've lost 19 kilos in the last year from being more active and eating korean food basically. Ive been stagnant at my weight for about 3 months now and joined a gym one month ago.

I started out by going slow on a treadmill and increased the speed by .5 every 5 minutes for about a half of an hour. After doing this for a month I am burned out. My front shines always kill and I am stiff. I have incorporated moderate weight lifting which is going well I think. I realize I need to slow down so here are my questions.

1. I sweat easily and going fast makes me do so, get my metabolism up and burn more calories. Is it better for me to choose a lower pace where I sweat less but can walk more and at a more comfortable pace. If so, how long before I move up the pace?

2. I've been doing an overall workout of my body with weights, but I want to be specific and pick one part each day. Is this the right way to do it? Ive looked at some example routines and thats the jist I get.

3. For breakfast I have 2 eggs and fruit, lunch is school food.. rice, kimchi, soup and side dishes. and dinner is comprised of bibimbab or tuna kimbab and kimchi. My snacking is down and I have switched to Dr. You bars if I do eat something. I've tried to cutdown the rice, but the guy who is advising me said that I should be loading up on sweet potatoes, rice and carbs to build muscle.

Overall I just want to loose weight and build muscle while doing it. Im going to start having a whey protein shake in the day. Any thoughts of a brand or what time of day to do it?

And is it better to eat before or after I work out? This would be dinner.

Thanks for the advice and I apologize for the disorganization of this post.

Keep it sparkling!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jeff's Cigarettes



Joined: 27 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stretch more. ON whey. Don't worry about feeling tired, it's because ur not yet in shape, u'll get there. Most of all...don't quit!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
aka Dave



Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/79235.php

If you're goal is muscle gain/weight loss, and you work out hard, I suggest you drink as much non-fat milk after your work out. A lot of people have been bantering this around.

But be practical. What makes baby mammals grow? Milk. Are we mammals? Yeah!

Also, think about them chickens, what makes them grow? Egg whites! (the yellow part is the chicken). My breakfast is 10 egg whites and broccoli, garlic, or other veggies. Sounds crazy but it tastes fine.

After 2 weeks non-fat milk will taste like milk and egg whites will taste like eggs.

However, if you want to bulk up you must drink whole milk and eat whole eggs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
afsjesse



Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Location: Kickin' it in 'Kato town.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is Skim milk in Korean? The usual brands in my small town store are ESL MIlk, seoul milk etc....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aka Dave



Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, it's a pain in the butt to get non fat milk, but if in my case it's Homeplus (or previously in our town Homever) that sells it. I've actually got a ton of the stuff in my fridge.

It's gotta pink label and it says 지 방 (fat) 0%. You'll have to go to a big market to find it, but you can substitute low-fat milk. If you're looking to cut weight the non-fat might be quicker, but I'd think both would be fine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jon_blaze



Joined: 12 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, first I'd recommend checking out www.bodybuilding.com The community on there is going to be much more knowledge-friendly on the information dealing with muscle gaining and fat loss or what have you.

As for your cardio, are you doing it before or after your lifting? That'll determine the extra caloric burn.

As for the stiffness, as another person posted, you gotta stretch those muscles, unless you want bulky compact ones and an easier chance of hurting yourself. It is probably one of the weightlifters most forgettable things to do.

As for the easy sweat, that doesn't necessarily mean you're burning more calories and working your metabolism harder, it just means you sweat more and burn through water in your body quicker. So you just need to take in more water than a person who sweats less. As for picking up the pace, you could always work in a pyramid. That being every week you want to push it slightly more than the peak performance of your last week.

The specific workouts you want to do are all listed on bodybuilding.com and you can build your schedule on what is most comfortable for yourself. Standard practice for most people is to do chest on Mondays, after that its pretty much free for all.

For your meals, most of your carbs should be taken in during the mornings since it'll burn all day. You want a good mix of fats, carbs and protein, looking something like 25% fats, 30% carbs, 45% protein.

As for all your supplement needs, they are all on the website listed above. As for your workout being around dinner time, you want to eat about 5-7 small meals a day. So you'll eat a small one before your workout and after your workout (generally these are your whey protein shakes).

And again just check out the site, it's got a crap ton of information.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sojourner1



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Location: Where meggi swim and 2 wheeled tractors go sput put chug alugg pug pug

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Another weight training thread... Reply with quote

afsjesse wrote:


1. I sweat easily and going fast makes me do so, get my metabolism up and burn more calories. Is it better for me to choose a lower pace where I sweat less but can walk more and at a more comfortable pace. If so, how long before I move up the pace?



No, it's not better to go slow and easy as you need to do physical work to get benefits out of exercise. You need to sweat and get your heart rate up to strengthen your cardiovascular and heart in the process of losing weight. Since your shins are hurting, you might get on the stationary bike for now or use treadmill only 2 times a week and bike 2 times a week. You can get great cardio benefits out of the bike. I've had knee problems, 2 knee surgeries, and I used stationary bike a lot, but now I'm doing pretty good on treadmill as long as I don't cause another blow out due to not having an ACL to keep the knee together.



2. I've been doing an overall workout of my body with weights, but I want to be specific and pick one part each day. Is this the right way to do it? Ive looked at some example routines and thats the jist I get.



Yes, alternate body parts to give everything a day to recover from training. Many people do lower one day and upper the next day, but I just blast my whole body every other day while alternating with no weight training days that are all cardio though I get cardio every day except Sunday. The weight training days, I do 10 minutes warm up cardio before lifting for 30 minutes and then do 30 minutes cardio after lifting. On alternating days I don't lift, I do 10 minutes stair stepping warm up and then 1 to 1 1/4 hour of treadmill with 1 minute fast run blasts every 10 minutes. This makes me sleep like a baby...



3. For breakfast I have 2 eggs and fruit, lunch is school food.. rice, kimchi, soup and side dishes. and dinner is comprised of bibimbab or tuna kimbab and kimchi. My snacking is down and I have switched to Dr. You bars if I do eat something. I've tried to cutdown the rice, but the guy who is advising me said that I should be loading up on sweet potatoes, rice and carbs to build muscle.



Carbs make you fat and prevent you from losing, except you need some oatmeal or cereal grains in the morning. When you put yourself on a diet of mostly protein and fiber which is mostly vegetables and some lean meat, you get higher energy from your body being forced into burning fat for energy which=decreasing weight and more performance. Of course, you'll always get some carbs as it's almost impossible to cut them all out. I'd also take a multivitamin since Korean food lacks nutrition just like fast food does. White rice is blank carbs, calories, and nothing more. The Korean food is mostly preserved material that offers nothing like chopping up fresh veggies for stir fry or a fresh salad.

Good luck to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sojourner1



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Location: Where meggi swim and 2 wheeled tractors go sput put chug alugg pug pug

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Another weight training thread... Reply with quote

afsjesse wrote:


1. I sweat easily and going fast makes me do so, get my metabolism up and burn more calories. Is it better for me to choose a lower pace where I sweat less but can walk more and at a more comfortable pace. If so, how long before I move up the pace?



No, it's not better to go slow and easy as you need to do physical work to get benefits out of exercise. You need to sweat and get your heart rate up to strengthen your cardiovascular and heart in the process of losing weight. Since your shins are hurting, you might get on the stationary bike for now or use treadmill only 2 times a week and bike 2 times a week. You can get great cardio benefits out of the bike. I've had knee problems, 2 knee surgeries, and I used stationary bike a lot, but now I'm doing pretty good on treadmill as long as I don't cause another blow out due to not having an ACL to keep the knee together.



2. I've been doing an overall workout of my body with weights, but I want to be specific and pick one part each day. Is this the right way to do it? Ive looked at some example routines and thats the jist I get.



Yes, alternate body parts to give everything a day to recover from training. Many people do lower one day and upper the next day, but I just blast my whole body every other day while alternating with no weight training days that are all cardio though I get cardio every day except Sunday. The weight training days, I do 10 minutes warm up cardio before lifting for 30 minutes and then do 30 minutes cardio after lifting. On alternating days I don't lift, I do 10 minutes stair stepping warm up and then 1 to 1 1/4 hour of treadmill with 1 minute fast run blasts every 10 minutes. This makes me sleep like a baby...



3. For breakfast I have 2 eggs and fruit, lunch is school food.. rice, kimchi, soup and side dishes. and dinner is comprised of bibimbab or tuna kimbab and kimchi. My snacking is down and I have switched to Dr. You bars if I do eat something. I've tried to cutdown the rice, but the guy who is advising me said that I should be loading up on sweet potatoes, rice and carbs to build muscle.



Carbs make you fat and prevent you from losing. You need some oatmeal or cerial grains in the morning. When you put yourself on a diet of mostly protein and fiber which is mostly vegetables and some lean meat, you get higher energy from your body being forced into burning fat for energy which=decreasing weight and more performance. Of course, you'll always get some carbs as it's almost impossible to cut them all out. I'd also take a multivitamin since Korean food lacks nutrition just like fast food does. White rice is blank carbs, calories, and nothing more. The Korean food is mostly preserved material that offers nothing like chopping up fresh veggies for stir fry or a fresh salad.

Good luck to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogey666



Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Another weight training thread... Reply with quote

afsjesse wrote:
So I'm inspired by the weight training thread and after reading all of those helpful posts and links I have some questions about my workout routine.

Im 24, weigh 103 kilos and am 6 feet tall. I've lost 19 kilos in the last year from being more active and eating korean food basically. Ive been stagnant at my weight for about 3 months now and joined a gym one month ago.

I started out by going slow on a treadmill and increased the speed by .5 every 5 minutes for about a half of an hour. After doing this for a month I am burned out. My front shines always kill and I am stiff. I have incorporated moderate weight lifting which is going well I think. I realize I need to slow down so here are my questions.

1. I sweat easily and going fast makes me do so, get my metabolism up and burn more calories. Is it better for me to choose a lower pace where I sweat less but can walk more and at a more comfortable pace. If so, how long before I move up the pace?

2. I've been doing an overall workout of my body with weights, but I want to be specific and pick one part each day. Is this the right way to do it? Ive looked at some example routines and thats the jist I get.

3. For breakfast I have 2 eggs and fruit, lunch is school food.. rice, kimchi, soup and side dishes. and dinner is comprised of bibimbab or tuna kimbab and kimchi. My snacking is down and I have switched to Dr. You bars if I do eat something. I've tried to cutdown the rice, but the guy who is advising me said that I should be loading up on sweet potatoes, rice and carbs to build muscle.

Overall I just want to loose weight and build muscle while doing it. Im going to start having a whey protein shake in the day. Any thoughts of a brand or what time of day to do it?

And is it better to eat before or after I work out? This would be dinner.

Thanks for the advice and I apologize for the disorganization of this post.

Keep it sparkling!


things off the top of my head after reading your post:

- the treadmill workout... I wouldn't do more than 2 miles of cardio a day. (say jogging). Instead of constantly increasing the speed, try interval training - jog for say a quarter of a mile then try sprinting the next quarter.. then back to jog. This will really amp up your metabolism and get you sweating buckets. You're not training for a marathon. Pace is a matter feel. Build it up.... at a rate where you're never too comfortable, but not to the point of exhaustion.

- re weights. IMHO, time to junket the Korean circuit training approach. I love seeing these weeny guys do it in my gym day after day then stare at my arms wondering why their aren't growing. You're young. You're not merely interested in weight loss. You are after body shaping as well. Hence lift. Even if your weight doesn't drop as fast as you may like, your bodyshape will improve and keep improving.

Tons of lifting stuff out there. I'm old school so I'll recommend Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia of Bodybulding. Lots of great stuff in there, including beginning routines. Yes, you will want to split up the body and do different parts on different days. Arnold has beginners doing a body part up to thrice a week, that may be too much for you..

I would recommend a three on one off, three on routine...
for e.g. day 1 - chest and back
day 2 - biceps and triceps
day 3 - shoulders and legs.

there are many variations on the above, it's merely an example, one I've used and had success with.

at minimum, I'd lift 4x a week, working each bodypart twice a week

re lifiting - COMPOUND exercises using FREE weights. Let your 'advisor' use the machines. (you can use some of them later. At beginning, the ONLY machine I'd use is a lat pulldown machine , which is more like a station than a machine anyways.

re no. 3 - who's advising you? is he Korean? is he the same guy advising you to circuit train every part daily?
he's a MORON ... no matter his nationality.

you should be loading up on protein. protein builds muscle, Not carbs.. carbs are your "fuel" and give you energy..
but choose them VERY carefully.

and.. basically...
CUT DOWN on carbs.

I'll repeat and repeat and repeat again . CUT DOWN on carbs. (yes, that means rice, find something else to munch on.. an apple, a carrot, whatever)

load up on protein - Korean cuisine kind of sucks on this point - but tofu, tuna.. eggs (preferably the whites only) .. and of course the king, chicken.
not fried of course - Korean style.

re protein shakes... can't hurt.. I'm going to try that myself after winter vacation. get whey protein.

NO FRIED stuff.
learn to enjoy eating things that aren't drowning in sauce. Koreans drown everything in sauce. (basic rule - sauces = empty and useless calories. avoid them if it all possible).

no. 1 'sauce' killer in Western cuisine? - effing MAYONNAISE.
I hate that sh-it. Amazingly enough koreans drown their green salads in mayonnaise, drown their corn in mayonnaise and even serve cut up apples in mayonnaise.


I'm going to start bringing carrots and cucumbers to school to eat with lunch (they give me a tuna can since I can't eat most of their nonsense, I ried and ate everything early on and after several months, I decided... enough...) anyways will bring my own veggies from market for my own sanity and to see them get goo-goo eyed. Then I'll say - look a vegetable NOT drowning in sauce!!

re time to work out - completely UP TO YOU. Some people like to work out early in the mornings.. others late at night... others anytime in between. Choose what works for you. The key is to simply DO it.


personally I would advise eating either after working out..
but I also completely despise working out on a full stomach. I always try to do it on a fairly empty one.

If I work out after dinner, it's always at least 3 hours after dinner.

anyways - the more you try different things the better you will learn about your body and what works for YOU.

good luck.

btw, for comparison purposes and so you feel better, our size is similar.

I'm 5-11, was 100 kilos when I came to Korea, the fattest I've ever been in my life. My sized36 pants were getting tight and that was the breaking point. Now they're very very loose, I need a belt to wear them, I didn't bring any 34's with me, will have to try one soon. I'm guessing I could wear 34's now but they'd be a bit tight. Ideally, I should be fairly loose (but not overly so) in 34's.

I got down to 92 after 3 months and am hovering around 93 now, I haven't had the diet discipline and the cardio component to break that barrier, but in Venezuela, I was pretty muscular and pretty lean and weighed in around 88 kilos. I'd like to get down to even 85 kilos if possible and see if I could keep my size.


I wish I were 24 again. At this point, I'm old enough to have biologically sired you Shocked

Evil or Very Mad

the only comfort (and a small comfort it is) is that when in the shape I want to be in, I easily smoke guys not only my age but many guys your age.


Last edited by bogey666 on Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogey666



Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw.. always do cardio AFTER weights. NEVER the other way around.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
afsjesse



Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Location: Kickin' it in 'Kato town.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well thank's for that funny and VERY informative response Bogey!

Just out of curiosity, hablas castellano? He estudiado en la Argentina y tengo mi licensiatura en Espanol tambien.

Anyways, I appreciate the effort. To answer a couple of your questons, Yes the "adviser" is Koean. He was Mr. Ulsan and Korea or some crap like that not too long ago. Pictures of him are all over his studio. Everytime I go there there's rice or sweet potatoes being offered to me! I kindly refuse.

SO breakfast is important. How does this sound? A big glass of low-fat milk (skim not available), 3 eggs and a bowl of cereal (whole grain) I think.

I'll cut out the riice, but is it ok to have a little bit at lunch? I'm not going to lie but if I have no rice than I'm hungry still.... Perhaps I'll start loading up on a can of tuna per day like you.

I appreciate the effort. I even posted on bodybuilding.com so I got things moving.

Atleast I'm trying!!!! That's what counts i guess.

Jesse.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogey666



Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afsjesse wrote:
Well thank's for that funny and VERY informative response Bogey!

Just out of curiosity, hablas castellano? He estudiado en la Argentina y tengo mi licensiatura en Espanol tambien.

Anyways, I appreciate the effort. To answer a couple of your questons, Yes the "adviser" is Koean. He was Mr. Ulsan and Korea or some crap like that not too long ago. Pictures of him are all over his studio. Everytime I go there there's rice or sweet potatoes being offered to me! I kindly refuse.

SO breakfast is important. How does this sound? A big glass of low-fat milk (skim not available), 3 eggs and a bowl of cereal (whole grain) I think.

I'll cut out the riice, but is it ok to have a little bit at lunch? I'm not going to lie but if I have no rice than I'm hungry still.... Perhaps I'll start loading up on a can of tuna per day like you.

I appreciate the effort. I even posted on bodybuilding.com so I got things moving.

Atleast I'm trying!!!! That's what counts i guess.

Jesse.



claro que si, chico!
lo aprendi viviendo en Cuba y Venezuela entonces manejo en este idioma bastante bien.

nunca he visitado Argentina. Ojala un dia pronto!

I didn't mean to overly slam your Korean guy/friend/advisor, etc. I'm sure he's a nice guy and he also means well. It is also worth noting how many Korean men, despite loading up their trays with rice probably at least twice a day and eating all that korean stuff with sauce dripping all over it, and then getting hammered on soju, many of these guys stay prety lean.

but YOU are not Korean, I take it. Your body, your metabolism, your genetics and your portion size and snacking schedules, etc are probably assurely very different.

The protein vs carbs being the muscular building block is not up for argument though. That, is science. I think what your friend means is that the carbs are the "fuel" needed to give you the energy to work out hard in the gym, etc. And they are... BUT, you should be picky about which carbs you eat and generally try to limit them anyways.

btw.. that's a BIG breakfast, dude. Quite big. If you're going to have a big bowl of cereal (I wish I wish I wish they had Total cereal here, then I'd have it with skim milk daily) , three eggs is a bit much. Two.
or better yet... one. If no cereal, then have 2 eggs, and some milk. (lowfat isn't measurably worse than skim, but if you can get skim, get it)

yes, you most certainly can have rice at lunch (or at other times for that matter) but I would strongly advise you to limit it appreciably. Yes, it'll suck, especially at first, you will feel hungry, but fight thru it. Maybe have a protein shake in early to mid afternoon when the hunger pangs strike. I KNOW the feeling, trust me.

(that's why people eat rice, it makes you feel "full", its nutrititional benefits are umm.. err.... negligible)

tuna is excellent. Truly excellent (also effing expensive here and it looks like it always comes in oil, I can't get the lower caloric in water version like in the US).

I've actually developed a taste for Korean hot red pepper tuna.

Best wishes.


Last edited by bogey666 on Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thewhiteyalbum



Joined: 13 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogey666 wrote:
btw.. always do cardio AFTER weights. NEVER the other way around.


Why? I always do 60 minutes running, stair stepper thing bike etc to warm up my body. Have I been doing it wrong? Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
icnelly



Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no good reason for anyone in your position to be eating egg yolks. Pull those out and then eat 10 egg whites in an mushroom and onion omelette; you would barely break 200 calories for that. Each egg white has 17 cals, 0 fat, and 3.2 grams of protein: one of the best sources.

If you're really serious about doing this right, then skip all the generalizations and get to the heart of the matter: the math. Check youtube for dynamic stretching (best pre-work out), static stretching (best post-work out) and jumping roping for getting warmed up before runs or heavy cardio.

The math part is simple but kind of tedious (calories and nutritional splits). All of the information needed can be found here: caloriesperhour

1. figure out RMR
2. Choose activity factor
3. Multiply to find daily caloric need
4. Reduce intake for weight loss, and increase for weight gain
5. Experiment to find what fits

***3500 calories = 1 lb of fat***

Currently I'm doing 2600 calories a week for two weeks: that much allows me to still lose around a kilo a week but also lets' me push my muscles for small gains. Then I switch to 1900-2000 for a week: that allows me to maximize the loss and also switch to a much higher repetition workout out. Then back to 2600 for a week and then down to 1900-2000 for the last week. 1 phase = 5 weeks.

I've got some articles that would be good for you to read. PM me if you want them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
bogey666



Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thewhiteyalbum wrote:
bogey666 wrote:
btw.. always do cardio AFTER weights. NEVER the other way around.


Why? I always do 60 minutes running, stair stepper thing bike etc to warm up my body. Have I been doing it wrong? Sad


first of all, it depends on what your aim is.

However, it's pretty well universally acknowledged that you do anaerobic work before aerobic work, because though if hit the weights hard, outside of say.... difficult stuff like squats, you won't be overly tired for aerobic stuff that follows.

but if you sweat up buckets and get very winded from hitting the aerobics hard, your energy is way too depleted for any half way decent weight workout.

a 60 minute warmup isn't a warmup. 5 minutes is a warmup.

I'm not going to say you're doing it "wrong", but I will say that I think doing your aerobics AFTER the weight work will prove more beneficial.

(please note that my stance/view is always tilted toward weightwork and power based sports, rather than aerobics and endurance based pursuits.... so what you are seeking also comes into play, but the general rule is always weights before cardo.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International