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Why doesn't Canada petition the USA to become 51st state?
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Louie

Joined: 12 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:50 am Post subject:

Quote:

What hasn't this troll initiated thread been locked already?

Why does a post that starts a debate have to be locked?
Whats wrong with someone expressing an opinion or a point that gets other to think and discuss?

Sometimes you have to wonder if many people on this board are in fact educated at all..........

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:01 am Post subject:

Privateer wrote:

joshuahirtle27 wrote:

An education system that is somewhere near the top of the worlds 10 best... WORLD EDUCATION RANKINGS
UNICEF rankings of educational systems in the world's richest countries, indicating the percentage of 14 and 15 year olds scoring below a minimum level in literacy, math and science.
1. South Korea 1.4 percent
2. Japan 2.2
3. Finland 4.4
4. Canada 5
5. Australia 6.2
6. Austria 8.2
7. Britain 9.4
8. Ireland 10.2
9. Sweden 10.8
10. Czech Republic 12.2
- (tie) New Zealand 12.2
12. France 12.6
13. Switzerland 13
14. Belgium 14
- (tie) Iceland 14
16. Hungary 14.2
- (tie) Norway 14.2
18. United States 16.2
19. Germany 17
- (tie) Denmark 17
21. Spain 18.6
22. Italy 20.2
23. Greece 23.2
24. Portugal 23.6
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/26/world/main530872.shtml

The fact that Korea tops that list tempts me to rip it into small pieces, burn it, grind the ashes into the dirt, spit on the spot where it lies, and then bury it under a tarmac overcoat. I think you get my point.

No kidding. Koreans will do most anything to get their kids into even crappy schools in the USA.

With surveys such as that the methodology ought to be included in the post.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:02 am Post subject:

Louie wrote:

Sometimes you have to wonder if many people on this board are in fact educated at all..........

http://tsfiles.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pot-kettle-black.jpg

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:59 am Post subject:

joshuahirtle27 wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Louie wrote:

So what makes being an American so great?

I am here and I just think of the place as just another third-world country.

WTF is a third-world country?

The cold war is over.

Quote:

Maybe when we become subjects of the republic (sorry democracy now) of the USA we can share in some of that booming economy of yours too. I mean WOW. I can't tell you how much I want all of the perks of being a citizen of The United States of America.

The entire world is in a recession. It amazes me that any Canadians think that they're insulated from this shit. Or I suppose it doesn't. Kind of figures that your education system would be as bad as ours. Given that there's:

NO SUBSTANTIVE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES

No, health care does not count.

God, you off-topic people need to stop drooling all over yourselves and up your game.

So then, what possible benefit is there to losing our national identity and becoming Americans? I would say an 11% difference in education quality and having a higher ranked health care system is a substantive difference. And for the record I know Canada isn't insulated from the GLOBAL recession. What I meant was the US economy is going to shit (Canada is still stronger right now). I'm not God, but I appreciate the complement. I'm not so naive as to think Canada is bulletproof. I would think that if you're going to poke holes in my logic you'd have made a case for the measurement system... but I suppose that counts cause it's more important to have a standard for measuring how big the dick is that's up your ass than to have a decent standard of living even for those who are too poor to afford to get treatment.

This argument (I'm being generous in calling it that) is absurd. You're telling me Canada is superior because of its health care system?

Dude, what happens when the U.S. does get a socialized care system in five years? What happens to your defense of Canada's autonomy?

Again, you've provided me no reason why Canadian culture is superior much less distinct from American culture. Is it the holidays? Canada Day is almost on top of Independence Day, and you guys celebrate Thanksgiving as well.

Our cultures are the same. We have the same TV, we have the same movies, we have the same suburbias, we have the same lifestyles, we share the same language (there you go, Quebec is what makes you distinct! ROFL), we share nearly similar forms of gov't (Federalism!). Our economies are joined at the hip.

The reason why we should unite is that the whole is greater than the sum of our parts. Unity would strengthen Federalism, as formerly Canadian provinces would reinvigorate the State-Federal distinction. Again, the Canadian provinces wouldn't lose their health care systems, because they are state-managed. If anything, Canada joining the United States and Provinces of America would mean that we would have to get a health care system. There's already broad support for one in America.

Quote:

The question was:

Quote:

Why doesn't Canada petition the USA to become 51st state?I mean after all, why put up with all of this humiliation from this guy Steven Harper, and this lady, "the queen?" Become the 51st star on Old Glory! Dont let Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the Philippines beat you to it! I mean, after all, you would stand at least a fair chance of being accepted for statehood, don't you think?

There's people who don't care one way or the other but there are people who do care too. I would say that for the most part Canadians to not want to become American citizens. If they did it's very easy for a Canadian to immigrate to the US. Why the question was raised in the first place is absurd. As for "the queen", she is The Queen. That is her title. If you say "the queen" you make it seem like it's someone in drag. I'm sure you could debate that... but until it's proven she IS The Queen of England. Mr.Harper can suck on it. His policies were very Americanesque when it came to the economy and health care. He promised to work with the other parties and then said,"screw you guys I'm going home". The PM may be the head of the government but the opposition is in charge of keeping him in check. It was them that cast the no confidence vote. The Queen didn't have a say in the matter.

It is not easy for Canadians to immigrate to the US, or vice versa.

I really don't care about the Queen. The Queen actually might provide a valid defense, because it shows that Canada has a distinct culture from America. But it appears to me that many Canadians don't care about the Queen.

joshuahirtle27

Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

joshuahirtle27 wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Louie wrote:

So what makes being an American so great?

I am here and I just think of the place as just another third-world country.

WTF is a third-world country?

The cold war is over.

Quote:

The question was:

Quote:

1-We don't really care about the Queen. We do care when someone says something erroneous like "The Queen dissolves Canadian Parliament"
2-I said nothing about Quebec. The only thing that makes Quebec different is that they speak French. That's not a difference that's a language barrier. They are just as North American as any Canadian or American.
3-

Quote:

The reason why we should unite is that the whole is greater than the sum of our parts

Why then should Canada join the US? Why not the other way around? Is it cause you're bigger, older, what?
4-Yes I am saying that Canada's health care system is better. Maybe IF the US gets a universal health care system it will rival Canada's but I doubt it will come easy. It didn't happen over night back home.
5-I didn't say Canada was BETTER. I said "what possible benefit is there to losing our national identity and becoming Americans?", I'd say the same thing if Russia wanted to expand over the north pole and said "you guys should join up with us cause we're neighbors."
6-Exploring a joint treasury and a joint economy isn't a bad thing. They seems to be doing okay with the Euro so I think that if we could handle it a joint treasury and economy like they have in Europe would be okay. However, France is not part of England because of the Euro.
7-Just because America does it doesn't make it right. Germans (well it was headed by one Austrian) committed atrocities in WW2. They were a super power but it didn't make it right. I'm not saying that the Holocaust will happen again. I'm saying that just cause there's an idea floating around doesn't mean it's a good one.
8-Why would it be better for us to have a tenuous hold on alliances cause we have guns pointed at other countries?
9-NO SUBSTANTIVE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES then "Canada has a distinct culture from America.", Which is it? If a culture is distinct it is inherently different.
10-Getting back to the health care thing. I somehow doubt that Americans would suddenly want to foot the bill for a socialized program that they have no ability to get because it's not implemented in their area. The magic of the medicare system is that it's federally funded and provincially funded so that way everyone can get in on it. Hospitals north of the 49 would be ridiculously crowded because the "former Canadian provinces" which are now the "provinces of America" are over run with people who can't/ don't want to pay for a Dr. in their home area.

mises
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:02 am Post subject:
Louie wrote:

Sometimes you have to wonder if many people on this board are in fact educated at all..........

http://tsfiles.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pot-kettle-black.jpg This kettle is dark brown. Pay attention! Razz

[/u]

Louie

Joined: 12 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

Louie wrote:

Sometimes you have to wonder if many people on this board are in fact educated at all..........

http://tsfiles.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pot-kettle-black.jpg

And you know me enough to say this because.........?..................I'm waiting for an answer............?..................................

Mises- you wouldn't happen to be a Korean, are you?
Because only a Korean would assume that all Americans are totally united.......

If you're not Korean, you are really one misguided patriot.........
Remember, only 13% of all colonial Americans at the time supported total independence from Britain.....my hometown of New haven was a supply port for the Tory Redcoats after they put down the pesky revolt by the arrogant Yalies after the British amphibious invasion of 1779...

Also, remember the two times the US did invade Canada (during the Independence War and the War of 1812), the Dominion handed the US its ass on a wooden platter and then burned Washington to the ground, forcing the first family to seek refuge outside the city........

If I ever go to Canada or the UK, I'd be happy to call myself a "colonial"

ESL Milk "Everyday

Joined: 12 Sep 2007

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:17 am Post subject:

There is less and less of a difference between Canada and America every day. The Liberals were more concerned about 'The Canadian Identity' and 'Heritage', so they made all these TV commercials and tried to promote a unique identity (also, lots of opportunities to skim off the top)-- this was one of the first things that Harper axed when he got power. Really, the only thing that currently prevents Canada from being a really rural wannabe part of the USA is the flag, the currency, some social programs and a handful of meaningless national symbols. Our history isn't so distinct from the rest of N America... and what is distinct isn't all that exciting. There's just something really non-threatening and utterly unexciting about a red maple leaf... like we're mother's nature's children leaving little red leaves wherever we go. PM Stephen Harper has actually called Canada a 'nation of weaklings', because of all the social welfare programs and such, so who knows what's going to happen... though I suspect he'd like to see Canada becoming a lot more like America in the future, and the whole NA union thing is probably very much on the horizon as well. The financial crisis might just help it happen. Still, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I personally hope we get taken over by Italy... for the food!

roknroll

Joined: 29 Dec 2007

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:39 am Post subject:

mises wrote:

Privateer wrote:

joshuahirtle27 wrote:

No kidding. Koreans will do most anything to get their kids into even crappy schools in the USA.

With surveys such as that the methodology ought to be included in the post.

AP) South Korea has the most effective education system in the world's richest countries, with Japan in second place and the United States and Germany near the bottom, a United Nations study said Tuesday.

The ranking "provides the first 'big picture' comparison of the relative effectiveness of education systems across the developed world," the UNICEF study said.

"It is based not on the conventional yardstick of how many students reach what level of education, but on testing what pupils actually know and what they are able to do," UNICEF said.

It said it based the study on five different tests of 14 and 15 year olds to determine their abilities in reading, math and science.

The scores of the tests were disclosed individually in 2001 and earlier. What is new about the study is that it averages the results to give "the most comprehensive picture to date of how well each nation's education system is functioning as a whole," UNICEF said.

Dewayne Matthews, vice president of the Denver-based Education Commission of the States, said the U.S. showing in the UNICEF ratings was expected by people who follow international rankings in education and emphasized the need for reform.

"A lot of that has been driven by this perception that our schools are simply not good enough and they don't compare well with systems in other countries," Matthews told The Associated Press.

The blame or credit for the results does not go exclusively to a nation's schools, said the 36-page study, part of a series of "report cards" produced by UNICEF's Innocenti Research Center in Florence, Italy.

"It is clear that educational disadvantage is born not at school but in the home," said the report. "Learning begins at birth" and is fostered by "a loving, secure, stimulating environment."

UNICEF spokesman Patrick McCormick said the study had been unable to draw conclusions on a range of factors, such as how much was spent on education. Some countries spent less and did better.

The study also didn't get into whether extreme competition was a factor in Japanese or Korean results.

"We didn't really get into why. We found out that there was no one answer," McCormick said. "We tried linkages with the teacher-student ratios, with various things, and it didn't work.

"The biggest thing is obviously the socio-economic background of the child and how well-educated their parents are."

The study said that "South Korea and Japan sit firmly at the
head of the class."

"Germany, with its strong educational and intellectual tradition, occupies 19th place out of the 24 nations," just behind the United States in 18th place.

Germany is unusual in that it sorts children at an early age into professional, white-collar and blue-collar curricula, the study said. The German labor market's demands for particular qualifications "meant that the track a child ends up in has a particularly strong impact on later life," it said.

Germany and Denmark finished in the bottom half of tests on reading and math, but scored high in a separate evaluation of adult literacy, "again illustrating the danger of treating any one survey with undue reverence," the study said.

The United States, however, finished low in each test and in adult literacy.

McCormick said the study had not attempted to explain why the United States had fared badly.

"That's for them to pick up and run with," said McCormick. "It's that sort of country. The countries that economically are very diverse, with big immigrant populations, with lots of moving around, with a huge poverty gap, probably are going to show these sorts of results with education itself."

UNICEF said it based its conclusions on combining results of tests conducted by the Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, conducted in 2000 and the Trends in International Math and Science Study, or TIMSS, given in 1995 and 1999. TIMSS is backed in the United States by the Department of Education and the National Science Foundation and globally by the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement.

UNICEF said it also factored in results of the International Adult Literacy Survey of 1994 and 1998.
UNICEF said combining the tests produced "a more reliable overview" that helps meet criticism of any given test that may have been questioned for its cultural neutrality.

First off, without having read the 36 page report spewed out by UNICEF, I'm sure it's not the "big picture" as the age range is extremely limited and post-secondary education is unaccounted for. Further, the limited scope of content testing (criteria) omits pertinent areas that are necessary for a well-rounded view of an educational system, most notably writing. Others that may be more difficult to quantify but show up in post-secondary and beyond: critical thinking, leadership, ethics, social responsibility, creativity, entrepreneurship ..etc

Obviously there's a lot more competition in Korea due to their system that puts pressure on pupils to do well on the university entrance test. Hence the time and money spent on math, science hagwons. So the results posted versus other nations do not take this into account. In other words, it's not public schools versus public schools only.

The 'home' factor can simply be accounted for by unyielding parental pressure to achieve the highest marks possible without having to venture guesses on the "loving, secure, fostering environment" at home.

Koreans have also done well versus other nations on TOEIC and TOEFL testing. As we know, they focus on the grades but this hasn't actually increased their proficiency in using the language despite outspending other nations.

While not useless, this study takes a limited 'snapshot' of educational systems in various countries. Any predictive validity may show up in the pure sciences but there's no such link to post-secondary or beyond in this study. Koreans are doing better in patents related to the science technologies. The fact that they're heading overseas for their post-secondary speaks volumes.

toowise

Joined: 27 Nov 2008

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:06 am Post subject:

Lets see. Canada wouldnt want to be part of the states for many reasons: health care, we have it, they dont! gun control, we have it, they dont! a sane limit on the press, we have it they dont! pride in our nation we have it and we wouldnt give it up! respect on an international level that surpasses the states! acceptance worldwide that our poor cousins to the south dont have! more natural resources than we can shake a stick at! the list is endless!

sharkey

Joined: 12 Oct 2008

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject:

ESL Milk "Everyday wrote:

Still, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I personally hope we get taken over by Italy... for the food!

no kiddin' eh! I was living in Rome this summer. The food, my god, then i come home and eat this garbage

joshuahirtle27

Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject:

I"d be in favour of that. People like Italians right?

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