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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: "Please, give me F" |
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...from a university student of mine: "If my grade is anything under a B, please give me F instead."
The idea (for those not in the know) is that if a student gets an F, they can retake the class (and possibly not even the same class), get a better grade, and replace their F. If, however, I give them a C or a D, this grade can't be replaced, stays on their transcript and lowers their GPA.
I know not to rock the boat too much on this because that's the system I have to work with and if I push too hard, they might complain and get me "in trouble", but it irks me to no end anyway. The idea that they can halfass their way through a class and not be penalized in any way for it bugs me. IMHO, if you get a bad grade in university, it should stay on the transcript. Otherwise, where's the accountability?
Tip of the iceberg when it comes to problems with the education system in Korea, but still...  |
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nate2008
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: "Please, give me F" |
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| Hanson wrote: |
...from a university student of mine: "If my grade is anything under a B, please give me F instead."
The idea (for those not in the know) is that if a student gets an F, they can retake the class (and possibly not even the same class), get a better grade, and replace their F. If, however, I give them a C or a D, this grade can't be replaced, stays on their transcript and lowers their GPA.
I know not to rock the boat too much on this because that's the system I have to work with and if I push too hard, they might complain and get me "in trouble", but it irks me to no end anyway. The idea that they can halfass their way through a class and not be penalized in any way for it bugs me. IMHO, if you get a bad grade in university, it should stay on the transcript. Otherwise, where's the accountability?
Tip of the iceberg when it comes to problems with the education system in Korea, but still... |
I disagree completely. It is a normal practice that if a student wants to retake a class for a better grade (and consequently erase the previous grade) that student is allowed to do so. Theoretically, if a student got a B+ and wanted to retake the class to try for an A, he/she should be able to do so. This is the way it works in any university I have ever heard of.
Apparently in your university, a student doesn't have that opportunity unless he/she receives a failing grade. How is that in any way fair or even desirable? This is the students' way of trying to improve their grades, and their education, by getting around a flawed and unfair system.
I fail to see how your students wanting to do well in a class, even if that means taking the class twice, warrants this kind of animosity. |
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BrianInSuwon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I, as an employer or if I sat on a graduate school admission board, would want to see if a student needed to take a class three times before being able to "earn" an A or B.
Most schools allow students to withrdraw/drop a class:
A student may drop a class prior to 33% of the class duration without a grade being recorded on the student's transcript.
If a student drops after 33% but before 62% of the class duration, a grade of W will be issued.
No drops will be accepted after 62% of the course duration. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: "Please, give me F" |
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| nate2008 wrote: |
| Hanson wrote: |
...from a university student of mine: "If my grade is anything under a B, please give me F instead."
The idea (for those not in the know) is that if a student gets an F, they can retake the class (and possibly not even the same class), get a better grade, and replace their F. If, however, I give them a C or a D, this grade can't be replaced, stays on their transcript and lowers their GPA.
I know not to rock the boat too much on this because that's the system I have to work with and if I push too hard, they might complain and get me "in trouble", but it irks me to no end anyway. The idea that they can halfass their way through a class and not be penalized in any way for it bugs me. IMHO, if you get a bad grade in university, it should stay on the transcript. Otherwise, where's the accountability?
Tip of the iceberg when it comes to problems with the education system in Korea, but still... |
I disagree completely. It is a normal practice that if a student wants to retake a class for a better grade (and consequently erase the previous grade) that student is allowed to do so. Theoretically, if a student got a B+ and wanted to retake the class to try for an A, he/she should be able to do so. This is the way it works in any university I have ever heard of.
Apparently in your university, a student doesn't have that opportunity unless he/she receives a failing grade. How is that in any way fair or even desirable? This is the students' way of trying to improve their grades, and their education, by getting around a flawed and unfair system.
I fail to see how your students wanting to do well in a class, even if that means taking the class twice, warrants this kind of animosity. |
Perhaps I didn't explain myself enough.
The student in question knows that he can muck about in a class without consequence. It will never appear on his transcript that he was a lazy student in my class. Theoretically, you think it's ok that students could go through the semester, get a well-deserved C, but then upgrade it and have the first C erased completely from the record?
There's nothing wrong with trying to better yourself, but transcripts and GPA should be a true reflection of the student, not just a collection of the best (and most recently taken...). At least, that's what my university did, and every other university I've ever heard of - but maybe there are some that allow students to completely erase their bad grades? In that case, a student could get a whole whack of C's, D's and F's, but then take the classes again (presumable do well) and never have those bad grades reflected on a transcript? Sorry, but that's not right.
I have a DNF ("Did Not Finish") on my transcript - from a Statistics class for which I missed the final exam. I retook the class and got a decent grade. That DNF is still on my transcript, showing I was a dumbass for a class. Why should my failings as a student be erased from the academic record? I don't get it. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Usually, you bust your butt the 2nd time around because you know you don't have any more chances.
Schools love this because you stay in school longer (keep paying tuition). |
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nate2008
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: "Please, give me F" |
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| Hanson wrote: |
| nate2008 wrote: |
| Hanson wrote: |
...from a university student of mine: "If my grade is anything under a B, please give me F instead."
The idea (for those not in the know) is that if a student gets an F, they can retake the class (and possibly not even the same class), get a better grade, and replace their F. If, however, I give them a C or a D, this grade can't be replaced, stays on their transcript and lowers their GPA.
I know not to rock the boat too much on this because that's the system I have to work with and if I push too hard, they might complain and get me "in trouble", but it irks me to no end anyway. The idea that they can halfass their way through a class and not be penalized in any way for it bugs me. IMHO, if you get a bad grade in university, it should stay on the transcript. Otherwise, where's the accountability?
Tip of the iceberg when it comes to problems with the education system in Korea, but still... |
I disagree completely. It is a normal practice that if a student wants to retake a class for a better grade (and consequently erase the previous grade) that student is allowed to do so. Theoretically, if a student got a B+ and wanted to retake the class to try for an A, he/she should be able to do so. This is the way it works in any university I have ever heard of.
Apparently in your university, a student doesn't have that opportunity unless he/she receives a failing grade. How is that in any way fair or even desirable? This is the students' way of trying to improve their grades, and their education, by getting around a flawed and unfair system.
I fail to see how your students wanting to do well in a class, even if that means taking the class twice, warrants this kind of animosity. |
Perhaps I didn't explain myself enough.
The student in question knows that he can muck about in a class without consequence. It will never appear on his transcript that he was a lazy student in my class. Theoretically, you think it's ok that students could go through the semester, get a well-deserved C, but then upgrade it and have the first C erased completely from the record?
There's nothing wrong with trying to better yourself, but transcripts and GPA should be a true reflection of the student, not just a collection of the best (and most recently taken...). At least, that's what my university did, and every other university I've ever heard of - but maybe there are some that allow students to completely erase their bad grades? In that case, a student could get a whole whack of C's, D's and F's, but then take the classes again (presumable do well) and never have those bad grades reflected on a transcript? Sorry, but that's not right.
I have a DNF ("Did Not Finish") on my transcript - from a Statistics class for which I missed the final exam. I retook the class and got a decent grade. That DNF is still on my transcript, showing I was a dumbass for a class. Why should my failings as a student be erased from the academic record? I don't get it. |
Well OF COURSE the transcripts show the class was taken twice!!! That's ALWAYS the case, but this isn't about whether a transcript should show how many times a student took a class. Every University I have ever heard of will show on the transcripts any course retakes that have been attempted. But should the student be allowed to make another attempt if they get a C? Definitely. According to you, your school doesn't allow this unless a student gets an F, which is a completely outrageous policy. I have no idea if your university shows retakes or not, but if they don't, they should. If I were you, and a student requested that I give them an F instead of a C or D, I would do it to give them the opportunity that your university is apparently robbing them of. |
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offtheoche
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Why should a lazy student be allowed to re-take the course...and still have the chance to get an A? That's ridiculous. Is this the system in the US? What a joke. 
It's no wonder that the average Brit is light years ahead of the average American when it comes to academics/being street smart/maturity etc etc.  |
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nate2008
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| offtheoche wrote: |
| Why should a lazy student be allowed to re-take the course...and still have the chance to get an A? That's ridiculous. Is this the system in the US? What a joke. |
Seriously? Are you being serious right now? This is like saying a child who fell and is trapped in a well shouldn't be rescued because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place. Sheer stupidity.
If a student wants to go from being lazy to being a hard worker, why should they be discouraged from that? Do you think a lazy student would be encouraged to change their ways if there were no retakes? What kind of students would the world's universities be producing? Quality is always better than quantity. Always. |
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samcheokguy
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Location: Samcheok G-do
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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the average brit is an essex chavette
just saying...  |
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jellobean
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Give the students the F. The students at your school shouldn't be punished because your school has a different policy than other schools. Many universities in Korea allow retakes at any time for any grade. Since in a comparison of your student and one from a school that allows retakes, your student would be disadvantaged because of the school policy, I think it's only fair to help the student out. He's going to have to take the course again anyway.
Where I'm at, students can retake to replace old grades no matter what the grade. In one class this semester, I had a girl who was quite good who was obviously retaking to help the friend she signed up with. (They were the only non-freshman in the class.) She was quite good, but he barely passed with her help all along the way. I never did figure out if they were just friends or dating, but it was obvious from the start that she had passed the course the first time and was doing it again to help him out. If we didn't have the grade replace at any level system she might not have taken the course. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: "Please, give me F" |
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| nate2008 wrote: |
| Hanson wrote: |
| nate2008 wrote: |
| Hanson wrote: |
...from a university student of mine: "If my grade is anything under a B, please give me F instead."
The idea (for those not in the know) is that if a student gets an F, they can retake the class (and possibly not even the same class), get a better grade, and replace their F. If, however, I give them a C or a D, this grade can't be replaced, stays on their transcript and lowers their GPA.
I know not to rock the boat too much on this because that's the system I have to work with and if I push too hard, they might complain and get me "in trouble", but it irks me to no end anyway. The idea that they can halfass their way through a class and not be penalized in any way for it bugs me. IMHO, if you get a bad grade in university, it should stay on the transcript. Otherwise, where's the accountability?
Tip of the iceberg when it comes to problems with the education system in Korea, but still... |
I disagree completely. It is a normal practice that if a student wants to retake a class for a better grade (and consequently erase the previous grade) that student is allowed to do so. Theoretically, if a student got a B+ and wanted to retake the class to try for an A, he/she should be able to do so. This is the way it works in any university I have ever heard of.
Apparently in your university, a student doesn't have that opportunity unless he/she receives a failing grade. How is that in any way fair or even desirable? This is the students' way of trying to improve their grades, and their education, by getting around a flawed and unfair system.
I fail to see how your students wanting to do well in a class, even if that means taking the class twice, warrants this kind of animosity. |
Perhaps I didn't explain myself enough.
The student in question knows that he can muck about in a class without consequence. It will never appear on his transcript that he was a lazy student in my class. Theoretically, you think it's ok that students could go through the semester, get a well-deserved C, but then upgrade it and have the first C erased completely from the record?
There's nothing wrong with trying to better yourself, but transcripts and GPA should be a true reflection of the student, not just a collection of the best (and most recently taken...). At least, that's what my university did, and every other university I've ever heard of - but maybe there are some that allow students to completely erase their bad grades? In that case, a student could get a whole whack of C's, D's and F's, but then take the classes again (presumable do well) and never have those bad grades reflected on a transcript? Sorry, but that's not right.
I have a DNF ("Did Not Finish") on my transcript - from a Statistics class for which I missed the final exam. I retook the class and got a decent grade. That DNF is still on my transcript, showing I was a dumbass for a class. Why should my failings as a student be erased from the academic record? I don't get it. |
Well OF COURSE the transcripts show the class was taken twice!!! That's ALWAYS the case, but this isn't about whether a transcript should show how many times a student took a class. Every University I have ever heard of will show on the transcripts any course retakes that have been attempted. But should the student be allowed to make another attempt if they get a C? Definitely. According to you, your school doesn't allow this unless a student gets an F, which is a completely outrageous policy. I have no idea if your university shows retakes or not, but if they don't, they should. If I were you, and a student requested that I give them an F instead of a C or D, I would do it to give them the opportunity that your university is apparently robbing them of. |
Dude, you sound a little angry... I guess I'm not explaining it right, so here's another attempt:
If a student gets an F in my class, he/she can retake the class. Assuming this student passes the second time around, the first F disappears from the student's transcript - like it never happened. The student is credited with whatever grade he/she got the second time around. Of course, the F never appears anywhere and so doesn't affect the GPA.
If, on the other hand, a student gets anything other than an F, the student can retake the class (I never said they couldn't...) in the hopes of getting a better grade, but the original grade remains on the student's transcript. In this case, whatever the outcome of the second try, the first try remains on the transcript, and so affects the GPA.
Take the case of my student today - he's looking at a C. His request is to have me fail him so that he can take the class again, get a better grade (than a C or an F), with his transcript never recording the fact that he was a C-level student (aka lazy bum) in my class. This is if I accept, of course, and give him the F. I'm still thinking about it... |
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nate2008
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: "Please, give me F" |
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| Hanson wrote: |
| Dude, you sound a little angry... I guess I'm not explaining it right, so here's another attempt: |
For the record, I'm not angry at all. The problem with online interactions is it can be very hard to judge emotions. I only get angry when reading fromtheuk's posts.
| Hanson wrote: |
| If a student gets an F in my class, he/she can retake the class. Assuming this student passes the second time around, the first F disappears from the student's transcript - like it never happened. The student is credited with whatever grade he/she got the second time around. Of course, the F never appears anywhere and so doesn't affect the GPA. |
This is the way it should be, except with ALL grades, not only F's.
| Hanson wrote: |
| If, on the other hand, a student gets anything other than an F, the student can retake the class (I never said they couldn't...) in the hopes of getting a better grade, but the original grade remains on the student's transcript. In this case, whatever the outcome of the second try, the first try remains on the transcript, and so affects the GPA. |
That's the dumbest policy I have ever heard of.
| Hanson wrote: |
| Take the case of my student today - he's looking at a C. His request is to have me fail him so that he can take the class again, get a better grade (than a C or an F), with his transcript never recording the fact that he was a C-level student (aka lazy bum) in my class. This is if I accept, of course, and give him the F. I'm still thinking about it... |
If he is truly a "C-level student" then the next time he takes this class, he should once again get a C. If he gets anything else, he either cheated, or he is more capable than a C-level student. If he decides to be lazy the first time around and gets a C because of it, but then retakes the class and proves that he is actually an A student in this subject area, the financial penalty of having to pay for the class again (not to mention wasted credit hours; retaking enough classes will hold a person in school for longer than they normally would be there) should be more than enough penalty. A person should be rewarded for wanting to improve their grades, not penalized. You wouldn't penalize a person for studying to improve their grades, why penalize them for wanting to improve their grades through retakes?
To summarize, your school has a pretty ridiculous policy and the students are trying to counteract it to make it the way it should be, but they need your help to do so. The question is, and here's what this whole thread boils down to, the question that nobody can answer but you: will you help them? |
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fromtheuk
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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I only get angry when reading fromtheuk's posts.
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nate2008
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| fromtheuk wrote: |
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I only get angry when reading fromtheuk's posts.
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Stop lurking you twisted freak. |
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fromtheuk
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure nate is developing that Herbert Lom-like twitch from the Pink Panther movies.
I'm not lurking, it's a public forum, oh 'sane' one. |
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