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Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

We can go on speculating for thousands of years without arriving at the absolute truth of the nature of total reality.

The original Vedic scriptures explain the difference between spirit and matter and stress the importance of developing our spiritual life.

To be rational, religion needs to be based on sound philosophy. From my studies, the most coherent philosophy is that expounded in Bhagavad-gita by Krishna, who claims to be God (and has been accepted as God by billions of people).

Religion without philosophy becomes sentimentality or fanaticism.

Philosophy without religion is just dry speculation.

In Vedic religion, the distinction is made between theoretical knowledge (jnana) and realized knowledge (vijnana). One can intellectually understand oneself to be a spirit-soul that's distinct from the physical body, but generally one needs to take up a devotional process to realize it.

At the perfectional stage, religion and science should reach the same understanding, but science needs to broaden its scope to study spirit as well as matter, while religions need to be more scientific in their approach to understanding and loving God.

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada often stressed that spiritual knowledge should be understood to be scientific, using logic and reason as far as possible.

Here he tries to explain some basic concepts to an inquisitive reporter:

Mike Robinson: There�s a quote here that I�d like you to comment on. I was given this literature by your people before I came, and one of the things you say here is that �Religion without a rational basis is just sentiment�. Can you explain that?

Srila Prabhupada: Most religious people say, �We believe�� But what is the value of this belief? You may believe something which is not actually correct. For instance, some of the Christian people say, �We believe that animals have no soul�. That is not correct. They believe animals have no soul, because they want to eat the animals, but actually animals do have a soul.

Mike Robinson: I can see that completely. But the Christian scriptures say �

Srila Prabhupada: Don�t bring in any scriptures; this is a commonsense topic. Try to understand. The animal is eating, you are eating; the animal is sleeping, you are sleeping; the animal is defending, you are defending; the animal is having sex, you are having sex; the animals have children, you have children; they have a living place, you have a living place. If the animal�s body is cut, there is blood; if your body is cut, there is blood. So, all these similarities are there. Now, why do you deny this one similarity, the presence of the soul? This is not logical. You have studied logic? In logic there is something called analogy. Analogy means drawing a conclusion by finding many points of similarity. If there are so many points of similarity between human beings and animals, why deny one similarity? That is not logic. That is not science.

Mike Robinson; But if you take that argument and use it the other way�

Srila Prabhupada: There is no other way. If you are not arguing on the basis of logic, then you are not rational.

Mike Robinson: Yes, OK, but let�s start from another hypothesis. Suppose we assume that a human being has no soul�

Srila Prabhupada: Then you must explain the difference between a living body and a dead body. I have already explained this at the beginning. As soon as the living force, the soul, is gone from the body, even the most beautiful body has no value. No one cares for it; it�s thrown away. But now, if I touch your hair, there will be a fight. That is the distinction between a living body and a dead body. In a living body the soul is there, and in a dead body the soul is not there. As soon as the soul leaves the body, the body has no value. It is useless. This is very simple to understand, but even the biggest so-called scientists and philosophers are too dull-headed to understand it. Modern society is in a very abominable condition. There is no man with a real brain.

Mike Robinson: Are you referring to all the scientists who fail to understand the spiritual dimension in life?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Real science means full knowledge of everything, material and spiritual.

Mike Robinson: But you were a chemist in secular life, were you not?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I was a chemist in my earlier life. But it doesn�t require any great intelligence to become a chemist. Any commonsense man can do it.

Mike Robinson: But presumably you think that material science is also important, even if today�s scientists are dull-headed.

Srila Prabhupada: Material science is important just so far. It is not all-important.

Mike Robinson: I see. Can I come back to a question I had from before? When we were differing a few minutes ago you were saying, �Don�t bring the scriptures in; just use common sense.� But what part do the scriptures play in your religion? How important are they?

Srila Prabhupada; Our religion is a science. When we say that a child grows into a boy, it is science. It is not religion. Every child grows into a boy. What is the question of religion? Every man dies. What is the question of religion? And when a man dies, the body becomes useless. What is the question of religion? It is science. Whether you�re Christian or Hindu or Muslim, when you die your body becomes useless. This is science. When your relative dies, you cannot say, �We are Christian; we believe he has not died.� No, he has died. Whether you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim he has died. So when we speak we speak on this basis: that the body is important only as long as the soul is in the body. Then the soul is not there, it is useless. This science is applicable to everyone, and we are trying to educate people on this basis.

Mike Robinson: But if I understand you correctly, you seem to be educating people on a purely scientific basis. Where does religion come into it at all?

Srila Prabhupada: Religion also means science. People have wrongly taken religion to meant faith � �I believe�. {To a disciple} Look up the word religion in the dictionary.

Disciple: Under religion, the dictionary says, �recognition of superhuman control or power, and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience, and effecting such recognition with the proper mental attitude�.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Religion means learning how to obey the supreme controller. So, you may be Christian, and I may be Hindu; it doesn�t matter. We must both accept that there is a supreme controller: to understand the supreme controller and obey Him � that�s all. In the state, the good citizen is he who understands the government and obeys the laws of the government, and the bad citizen is the one who doesn�t care for the government. So, if you become a bad citizen by ignoring God�s government, then you are irreligious. And if you are a good citizen, then you are religious.

Mike Robinson: I see. Can you tell me what you believe to be the meaning of life: Why do we exist in the first place?

Srila Prabhupada: The meaning of life is to enjoy. But now you are on a false platform of life, and therefore you are suffering instead of enjoying. Everywhere we see the struggle for existence. Everyone is struggling, but what is their enjoyment in the end? They are simply suffering and dying. Therefore, although life means enjoyment, at the present moment your life is not enjoyment. But if you come to the real, spiritual platform of life, then you�ll enjoy...

www.belfast.iskcon.com/BeyondReincarnation.htm

Underwaterbob · Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito

itaewonguy · Joined: 25 Mar 2003

mindmetoo · Joined: 02 Feb 2004

So, Rteacher, who?

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

It's too late for me to record a Who song tonight - maybe tomorrow... Cool

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

Better late than never ...
http://www.singsnap.com/snap/r/b8fe8448

mises · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired

caniff · Joined: 03 Feb 2004 Location: All over the map

This thread reminds me of this clip:

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=DQaF4YXCXsc

(Great show, btw. I was depressed back in the day when its run ended.)

on_me_head_son · Joined: 26 May 2004 Location: Seoul

[quote="itaewonguy"]
Blahblahblahbloodyblah[quote]

You're a joke mate,you pretend to be some sort of agnostic, yet all you do is try to piss all over the rational arguments you are confronted with and spout some kind of hippy dippy spiritual crap.

If you were honest you would be arguing " I know nothing therefore I cannot comment and withdraw from the debate".

Be honest to yourself and maybe you can escape with the respect of a few people. Keep doing the ITWG thingy and you'll be left with NOHHHTIIGNNNNG!!

Kuros · Joined: 27 Apr 2004