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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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 Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Plenty of murder goes on in the course of military operations. It's called 'collateral damage'. Civilian deaths have exceeded combatant deaths in just about every war in the 20th Century. |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Taking a life is taking a life. Picking out the male population, designating them combatants and giving them weapons hardly makes them fair targets. What else weould you call the extermination of a population based on gender? Murder? Genocide? People watch too many movies and assume that everyone on the German side was a hardened racist, everyone in Iraq is a scumbag terrorist. Or every American a crusading, Christian, imperialist pig. War is an exercise in killing those who are no different than you but who just got picked to wear the wrong uniform.
And yeah, that's to say nothing of civilian casualties. If there's really any such thing as a "civilian" when fighting a war on somebody's home soil. Are those working in factories supplying the war effort civilians? How about those quartering soldiers? Or the villages luring the "enemy" into boobie traps?
Anyway, those who wish to join the military, or get drafted, fine. But those who choose not to choose sides in an exercise in futility shouldn't be thrown in jail . . . talk about wasting somebody's life. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| espoir wrote: |
| Neil wrote: |
| I think most of the COs are Jehovah's Witnesses. |
Probably buddhists. Christians dont mind killing other people as much as Buddhists tend to. |
No, Neil is correct. Nearly all conscientious objectors in Korea have been Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't agree with their religious beliefs, but I definitely respect their refusal to do military service. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Smee wrote: |
Taking a life is taking a life. Picking out the male population, designating them combatants and giving them weapons hardly makes them fair targets. What else weould you call the extermination of a population based on gender? Murder? Genocide? People watch too many movies and assume that everyone on the German side was a hardened racist, everyone in Iraq is a scumbag terrorist. Or every American a crusading, Christian, imperialist pig. War is an exercise in killing those who are no different than you but who just got picked to wear the wrong uniform.
And yeah, that's to say nothing of civilian casualties. If there's really any such thing as a "civilian" when fighting a war on somebody's home soil. Are those working in factories supplying the war effort civilians? How about those quartering soldiers? Or the villages luring the "enemy" into boobie traps?
Anyway, those who wish to join the military, or get drafted, fine. But those who choose not to choose sides in an exercise in futility shouldn't be thrown in jail . . . talk about wasting somebody's life. |
Good points. |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Military life is not what some of you think it is.
Besides, Israel and South Korea have to require universal conscription or face extinction. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Using the term murder for military action is rather disingenuous. You can make your point--instead of trashing it--by using the term killing. Not all killing is murder.
Anyway, the Jehovah's Witnesses object to any form of national service so offering them an alternative doesn't help them. |
I think his point about murder was valid and that he's entitled to make it without self-censorship.
Anyway, are you sure the Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't accept an alternative that involved no combat training whatsoever? As I understand it, they won't accept existing alternatives even if they qualify, because part of the program involves learning how to use weapons and kill people. |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Anyway, the Jehovah's Witnesses object to any form of national service so offering them an alternative doesn't help them. |
Jehovah's Witnesses only would not participate in military service, or activities related to such. Alternative service is acceptable. The alternative service initially proposed for COs was doing essential labour in hospitals. We have been waiting on a decision from the courts here concerning the matter as there are over 1,000 men in prison each year due to their stand on this matter. The cases and the courts decision is discussed in detail at this website: http://www.jw-media.org/frames/asia_pacific.htm |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Taking a life is taking a life. Picking out the male population, designating them combatants and giving them weapons hardly makes them fair targets. What else weould you call the extermination of a population based on gender? Murder? Genocide? People watch too many movies and assume that everyone on the German side was a hardened racist, everyone in Iraq is a scumbag terrorist. Or every American a crusading, Christian, imperialist pig. War is an exercise in killing those who are no different than you but who just got picked to wear the wrong uniform. |
Taking a life isn't taking a life. Hunting a man and murdering him for sport is far different than shooting a man standing over your family with a machine gun. If you honestly can't see the difference in that you're about as clueless as they come. It doesn't matter if everyone on the german side was racist or simply following orders. The german war machine was bent on conquering all.
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| but I definitely respect their refusal to do military service. |
and when someone invades the country they refuse to fight to protect, they can be the first on the front lines running up and giving them hugs.
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| Plenty of murder goes on in the course of military operations. It's called 'collateral damage'. Civilian deaths have exceeded combatant deaths in just about every war in the 20th Century. |
and in the event of an invasion if everyone just sits by and does nothing, they'll slaughter them from one end of the country to the other without batting an eye. That is certainly better.
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| I think his point about murder was valid |
He can't seem to tell the difference between protecting your own and going out and slaughtering innocents, so no..his point isn't valid. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| teachergirltoo wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Anyway, the Jehovah's Witnesses object to any form of national service so offering them an alternative doesn't help them. |
Jehovah's Witnesses only would not participate in military service, or activities related to such. Alternative service is acceptable. The alternative service initially proposed for COs was doing essential labour in hospitals. We have been waiting on a decision from the courts here concerning the matter as there are over 1,000 men in prison each year due to their stand on this matter. The cases and the courts decision is discussed in detail at this website: http://www.jw-media.org/frames/asia_pacific.htm |
Thanks for the information. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Smee wrote: |
Well, there are many ways to help one's country besides picking up a gun and murdering people. If there are other avenues for conscientious objectors, then that's great. They shouldn't be punished, though, for being pacifists.
I wouldn't even be opposed to the US instituting some kind of mandatory two-year public service job after high school . . . in fact I think it'd be a great idea.
My comment was directed at the idea that a person who doesn't want to fight in a war is somehow not a man, whether or not that was the poster's intention. |
So you approve of slavery, and think soldiering is murder.
Please let us know about the moral high ground |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Oops, it looks like I misread an ambiguous post.
Last edited by Bramble on Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the information about the JW, teachergirltoo.
Bramble: It's not self-censorship. It's making an accurate point. Murder is defined in law. Lawful killing, therefore, cannot be murder. Another point is that accidental killing is not murder--collateral damage is not intentional.
I think mandatory military service or even mandatory national service is a mistake. If someone wishes to serve, let them enter the military voluntarily or avail themselves of some alternative national service voluntarily. It's also a mistake to consider those who don't volunteer as somehow lesser people than those who do. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Thanks for the information about the JW, teachergirltoo.
Bramble: It's not self-censorship. It's making an accurate point. Accidental killing is not murder. And collateral damage is not intentional. |
I don't think Smee meant to imply that a true accidental killing would be murder. But as another poster recently pointed out, there's no way to have a war without killing innocent people (not to mention other animals). What you call "collateral damage" is a certainty, not just a remote possibility. It's not the same as falling asleep at the wheel of a car and killing someone unintentionally ... you know that if you participate in a war, it necessarily involves killing innocent victims. You've thought about it beforehand and decided to kill those people, even if you don't know their names or exactly how many you're killing.
Note: I'm not a Jehovah's Witness and don't draw the line on such matters in the same place as Jehovah's Witnesses ... for example, I found it difficult to understand why they wouldn't participate in a rally to ask the government not to put them in jail. But I have to agree with them, and with Smee, when it comes to the issue of military service.
Second note: It looks as if you've edited your post. I think it's perfectly OK to challenge what's accepted in law and reflect our own judgments in language. So when I say animals are murdered in slaughterhouses and laboratories, it's not because I'm confused about how the law and the dictionary define murder. It's because I disagree.
Last edited by Bramble on Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| but this is exactly the kind of thing I wish the moderators would put a stop to. Whatever Smee may or may not have said in another thread, |
He said both of those things in this thread, try to keep up.
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| there's no way to have a war without killing innocent people (not to mention other animals). What you call "collateral damage" is a certainty, not just a remote possibility. |
Okay..so when they come to invade you can just say "Hold on..back up.. you're going to kill innocent people so you can't do that." I'm sure they'll listen.
You do realize that one party can start a war without the other side's express written consent don't you?
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| I think mandatory military service or even mandatory national service is a mistake. |
in a time of peace yes. I believe that there still isn't a peace treaty between North and South Korea, and North Korea is run by a raving lunatic. Not exactly the ideal time to leave the security of the country up to the whims of the young and short-sighted. A lot of countries disagree with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service (and yes some agree)
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| I don't think Smee meant to imply that a true accidental killing would be murder. |
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| Taking a life is taking a life. |
I do believe he did. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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"Some form of mandatory national service" = slavery
Got it. Sorry to have misread, but you have to admit the accusation was slightly misleading as it was originally worded.
I'll try to address your other points later because they do warrant a response. I just don't want to spend all day on the Internet when I have things to do. |
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