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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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 Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
Well I disagree with you..
I think spirituality is needed to tie it all together!
without it humans will remain lost!
on a spiritual path we will begin to save the earth! |
I don't see why a belief in magic is necessary. I would think that ethics and morality would be fine enough. I don't disagree that people need to follow morals, just that the morals don't need to be tied to a faith in something for which there is no evidence.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
just look at hippies! they were onto something.. but they died out due to the governments not wanting that way of thinking! |
The hippies had some good ideas about peace and love, but why is the belief in astrology, magic crystals and auras beneficial?
| itaewonguy wrote: |
but lets get one thing straight! science is not a tool exclusive to athiests ! sorry, don't try and think science is yours! and only yours to use in debates!..
religious people are not against science!!
science is a tool for everybody, every race, creed, and religion!
its for all humans to use and for all living things to benefit from .. |
I don't think anyone has ever claimed this. I think you are trying to equate "science is better than faith" with "only atheists can use science." While I disagree with the notion that science needs to be guided by faith or spirituality, I wouldn't say that people who have faith and/or spirituality can't use or understand science.
Last edited by greedy_bones on Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
Suppose you fell and hurt yourself, you couldn't get up, and I was the only other person who knew about it.
What would you want me to do, pray for you or call an ambulance? |
Again with prayer. The point is, people see others fall and get hurt all the time...and don't call the ambulance or help in any way. You are restating my point. Yes the ambulance (medical science) can help. But someone still needs to stop and call for help.
| Quote: |
Maybe chemistry and physics can't replace religion, but evolutionary psychology can.
Religion doesn't help us understand ourselves and each other, but evolutionary psychology does.
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I'm not goign to deal with your assertion that religion does not help us understand ourselves but focus on your view that evolutionary psychology does. This seems to be the foundation of your worldview: by knowing and understanding ourselves, we will improve our behavior. I disagree completely. This is basically the old view that all misdeed is based on ignorance. People never choose to do something they know is wrong or even self-destructive. If we only had more education! Then we would rid our species of greed, hate and bad choices altogether. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="toowise"]
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Religion has been around since man first started to question his existence
Religion was never a weapon of war! It�s a spiritual way of life.
Wars on the other hand are fueled by Emotions... mostly hate and greed!
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| wise wrote: |
| deluded much? Crusades? Spanish inquisition? Massacre of vassy? Hugenots vs protestants? Basically lasting from 1562-1598, totally religious based! |
More like politically based and religious driven!
'HEY dude, LOOK. The past 2000 years was a VERY religious time!
Governments used religion as a tool! But MONEY and power was their objective too! When the Spanish conquistadors went to America they were not there to spread to the word of god! They were driven by greed for gold! And they got what they wanted and destroyed the Inca then tried to change everyone to their god!
But like I said, religion is not supposed to be a weapon of war!
It�s when corrupted people use it to their advantage it becomes a weapon of war. But the principals of religion or spirituality are not supposed to be used for war! It�s actually meant to represent peace ... but that got lost centuries ago when GREED become the driving force!
If we erased religion. GOD, JESUS etc from the past 2000 years...
You saying we wouldn't have had any wars? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ITWG wrote: |
| If god was eliminated in our society and in schools would this make a better world? |
| tomato wrote: |
| Yes. Then people would take all the time, energy, and money which they had spent on religion and devote it to something more constructive. |
like what?
| ig wrote: |
| Why do you blame ordinary religious people for all the wars today? |
| tomato wrote: |
| Aren't they the culprits? Who do YOU blame? |
political leaders! people with power! the ones who decide to send in the military! oridinary people just follow orders!
| Quote: |
| Why do you hate religion so much when you know it�s not religion itself which creates the fighting? |
| tomato wrote: |
| Because religion purports to stop the fighting but it doesn't. |
thats becuase Corrution , Big business! and politics doesn't! and they are the ones who hold the power! the steps must be made there first! but they only look to line their pockets!
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| What do you call a scientist who believes in god? |
| tomato wrote: |
| A schizoid. |
well, educated scientists who are more smarter than you and I will ever be will disagree with you...
| Quote: |
| Honestly Tomato, which do you think is of bigger concern today: modern man's lack of technology or his lack of love/concern for other human beings? |
| tomato wrote: |
Modern man's lack of technology.
We already have enough people trying to solve the world's problems through flower power. If some of those people went to school and studied science instead, they might have found a way to refreeze the polar ice cap by now.
Suppose you fell and hurt yourself, you couldn't get up, and I was the only other person who knew about it.
What would you want me to do, pray for you or call an ambulance?
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ok now you are just being stupid! you are saying religious people are against science!!! you are starting to sound like religious people want science thrown out of society, all medicine and inventions thrown away and praying and gospel singing should be used!!
WAKE UP TOMATO!!
this has never been the case and you know it!!
science is not the weapon for athiests to use against deists!
many of the worlds inventions and medicines were invented by creationists, deists, muslims, etc..!!!
AND HIPPIES! actually many of them went to school and become scientists, world leaders! and inventors! to name a few.. you saying the Hippy culture was stupid ? you saying protesting the war and asking to give peace a chance is stupid? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| greedy_bones wrote: |
I don't see why a belief in magic is necessary. I would think that ethics and morality would be fine enough. I don't disagree that people need to follow morals, just that the morals don't need to be tied to a faith in something for which there is no evidence. |
I would also like to think ethics and morality would be fine enough..
but we both know its not!
and regards to evidence! well there is plenty of evidence if you want to see it! ask Deepak chopra if there is any evidence of spirituality!
see what he says... he has written plenty of books!
| itaewonguy wrote: |
just look at hippies! they were onto something.. but they died out due to the governments not wanting that way of thinking! |
| bones wrote: |
| The hippies had some good ideas about peace and love, but why is the belief in astrology, magic crystals and auras beneficial? |
I think this is a branch of Hippism( that even a word  ) beneficial to some for entertainment. Can't hurt! what you never read your horoscope in the morning paper before? come on...
some parts of science are not beneficial also so what do we do about that?!
| itaewonguy wrote: |
science is a tool for everybody, every race, creed, and religion!
its for all humans to use and for all living things to benefit from .. |
| bones wrote: |
| I don't think anyone has ever claimed this. I think you are trying to equivocate "science is better than faith" with "only atheists can use science." While I disagree with the notion that science needs to be guided by faith or spirituality, I wouldn't say that people who have faith and/or spirituality can't use or understand science. |
might not have claimed it, but indirectly suggested more like it..
I have never said science needs to be guided by faith or spirituality.
pretty sure there are plenty of scientists in the world who are guided by religion or some faith! science is nothing more than a tool! anyone can use it! doesn't matter what god you believe! look into the microscope what you do you see?! measure that with a ruler! thats science! its nothing more than a profession! a JOB! that's it!
whether you go home and pray after the being in the lab or not is a personal choice!
disbelieving in god doesn't make one a better scientist!
| Quote: |
| if one moves one's reference to a deeper poise within, through meditation, concentration, prayer and other methods, one raises one�s consciousness and opens to a more universal (i.e. non-local) realm of existence where one more readily experience intuitions of knowledge, creativity, life synchronicities, oneness, love, and joy of being. In comparison, our normal life is too much oriented towards its opposite � to locality, finiteness, ignorance, division, pain, suffering, and death |
whats wrong with living this way?
I spent 2008 reading books on atheism, reading books published by scientists who are athiests!, I watched countless documentaries on atheism and religion.. found them both to be negative!
2009 I am going to read about spirituality and watch docos about that way of life. also take up yoga and learn meditation and see what thats about..see if I feel anything or not.. that way I will be able to debate from experience..
question to you is.. would you ever read a book on spirituality or try meditation to see for yourself?
God is not fact! but either is no god.. atleast I'm not jumping to conclusions. Im looking at all sides with an open mind.
tai chi, yoga, Falun Gong, meditation you saying all of these disciplines have no benefits what so ever? |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
AND HIPPIES! actually many of them went to school and become scientists, world leaders! and inventors! to name a few.. you saying the Hippy culture was stupid ? you saying protesting the war and asking to give peace a chance is stupid? |
I'm not sure what tomatoe's views on hippies are, but I don't think protesting war and asking to give peace a chance is stupid. Spending your time in drum circles and defending the environment from a viewpoint that we are hurting Gaia, trees have feelings and dolphins have psychic abilities is stupid.
I'd say that most hippy views on God are worse than Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/ Moslem ones because they aren't based on what people think is true, but what they would like to be true. There are a large group of people who find faith in Christianity because they think it will help them, but a larger portion are Christian because they were raised that way and they honestly think it's the truth. Whereas a hippy world view comes from picking and choosing what sounds the best to them.
It would be great if I could fly, but I'm not going to base my world view on the fact that I can fly because I would be happier if I could fly. |
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toowise
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| More like politically based and religious driven! |
pls stop arguing from ignorance, the incidences i quoted are clearly the result of people with different beliefs trying to enforce their beliefs on others!
meditation is beneficial but does not need to be tied to any diety!
ahh yes Deepak chopra...he starts out with holistic meditation and healiing and then tries to twist peoples thinking into a diety. The diety he believes in. Yet another cult raises its ugly head and itwg is first on board! |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
I would also like to think ethics and morality would be fine enough..
but we both know its not! |
How so? I think it's wrong to steal. I don't steal. I think it's wrong to kill. I don't kill.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
might not have claimed it, but indirectly suggested more like it..
I have never said science needs to be guided by faith or spirituality.
pretty sure there are plenty of scientists in the world who are guided by religion or some faith! science is nothing more than a tool! anyone can use it! doesn't matter what god you believe! look into the microscope what you do you see?! measure that with a ruler! thats science! its nothing more than a profession! a JOB! that's it!
whether you go home and pray after the being in the lab or not is a personal choice!
disbelieving in god doesn't make one a better scientist!
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Once again, you'll get no argument from me here... for the most part. Science is a tool to be used for understanding the natural world. The problem comes when people use faith to explain the natural world and block science from doing it's job. Disbelieving in god, however may make one a better scientist for one main reason, skepticism. If one is skeptical about the existence of a god, it may make one more rigorous in what they accept to be true in other areas. Not too sure about this one, but a scientific view entails attempting to falsify hypotheses rather than verify them.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
I think this is a branch of Hippism( that even a word Laughing ) beneficial to some for entertainment. Can't hurt! what you never read your horoscope in the morning paper before? come on...
some parts of science are not beneficial also so what do we do about that?! |
There are a few problems with these superstitions. The first one is that they make people stupider and some make important decisions based on nonsense. Would you marry someone because they had a compatible sign? I know several people who would.
The other major problem is mainly in alternative medicine. Some people with serious ailments will seek out Homeopathy and Reiki rather than take real medicine. While I'm from a country without socialized medicine, if I came from a country with socialized medicine and my tax money went to quacks who use crystals to realign sick people's auras, I'd be pretty pissed.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| if one moves one's reference to a deeper poise within, through meditation, concentration, prayer and other methods, one raises one�s consciousness and opens to a more universal (i.e. non-local) realm of existence where one more readily experience intuitions of knowledge, creativity, life synchronicities, oneness, love, and joy of being. In comparison, our normal life is too much oriented towards its opposite � to locality, finiteness, ignorance, division, pain, suffering, and death |
whats wrong with living this way? |
It's generally ok, but doesn't seem to add anything to the world. If you want to believe you are one with the universe and open your third eye, go for it. It just won't add anything to society.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
question to you is.. would you ever read a book on spirituality or try meditation to see for yourself?
God is not fact! but either is no god.. atleast I'm not jumping to conclusions. Im looking at all sides with an open mind.
tai chi, yoga, Falun Gong, meditation you saying all of these disciplines have no benefits what so ever? |
I've tried meditation, tai chi, yoga and accupressure. Some of these have some benefits, but none of them have supernatural ones. Tai chi and yoga are good anaerobic exercise. Meditation is probably good for relaxing and maybe even for bringing some clarity to your life. Tai chi also has some self defense benefits. There are some benefits, but if I have a serious medical or mental condition, I'll take medicine.
As for my trying spiritual stuff, I have. I went to a college that was about 40% hippy and as a result offered some bs hippy classes. I took a course on alternative medicine. Before the class, I had an open mind. I thought that some of these practices were just old Eastern practices that hadn't been thoroughly investigated by the west yet. I wanted to learn about acupuncture because I thought it might have some merit and I didn't know much about it.
On the first day, we all felt each other's auras, and mine had a hole near one of my shoulders. The "professor" then held one hand to the sun and the other to my aura hole and channeled energy to fill the hole. Later, a student asked about her brother who was depressed and asked if it was because he was a Pisces. The professor responded that she too was a Pisces and that people with water signs often suffer from depression.
Needless to say, I decided to drop the class and use my tuition for something educational.
Last edited by greedy_bones on Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| toowise wrote: |
pls stop arguing from ignorance, the incidences i quoted are clearly the result of people with different beliefs trying to enforce their beliefs on others! |
yes, but they were also out for territorial gain, wealth and to help their expansion! and of course like the romans force the locals to adapt to the new way of life! should I post wars which were not religious based now ??
I don't think the soldiers in the military were clergy men ok!!
even without religion they would have conquered and slaughted people!
thats what humans do!!
| Quote: |
| ahh yes Deepak chopra...he starts out with holistic meditation and healiing and then tries to twist peoples thinking into a diety. The diety he believes in. Yet another cult raises its ugly head and itwg is first on board! |
oops Im sorry did I bother you from reading your Hitchens book?  |
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toowise
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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you just dont seem to be able to grasp this itwg. What happened later involved politics, professional soldiers etc, but the basic beginning was totally a matter of ignorant believers trying to enforce their beliefs on others. Dont move the yardstick further down the road, measure from the beginning and stop trying to justify the actions of the religious!
Without religion motivating them the incidence would never have occured and inasmuch 30 years of slaughter would never have happened!
Make a stand itwg. You either believe or you dont. If you dont believe why are you so opposed to science? If you do believe then we can set your inane viewpoints aside as yet another religious fanatic spouting out his brainwashed notions! |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
I would also like to think ethics and morality would be fine enough..
but we both know its not! |
| bones wrote: |
| How so? I think it's wrong to steal. I don't steal. I think it's wrong to kill. I don't kill. |
Because not everyone thinks the way you think do they.
Im sure christians kill people! Im sure atheists kill people!
but I doubt that christian who killed is a true christian.
most of your values were probably taught to you from a christian up bringing! or from a religious society which you lived!
to some , killing and stealing is not wrong!
| bones wrote: |
| The problem comes when people use faith to explain the natural world and block science from doing it's job. |
when and how does this happen?
| bones wrote: |
| Disbelieving in god, however may make one a better scientist for one main reason, skepticism. If one is skeptical about the existence of a god, it may make one more rigorous in what they accept to be true in other areas. Not too sure about this one, but a scientific view entails attempting to falsify hypotheses rather than verify them. |
this has nothing to do with ones profession! a professional will work his best for the most accurate results! I would like to think his religion would not stop him from being a professional!
I don't think a medical doctor who is a christian or muslim is going to stop halfway through a coronary artery bypass surgery and start to pray to god! I think he will use everything he has learned and studied to complete the surgery ...
same goes for a scientist! believing in god is not going to prevent a physicists from being the best he can be it's a profession.
So it all comes down to your ability! some are good, some are great! just like anything.
I don't think Ted Williams would pray to god when he hit the home runs! he used his skills!
| Bones wrote: |
| There are a few problems with these superstitions. The first one is that they make people stupider and some make important decisions based on nonsense. Would you marry someone because they had a compatible sign? I know several people who would. |
I wouldn't.. its not mean't to be taken seriously!
Do you look both ways before crossing the street? I do! I see people everyday who don't!
Stupidity is everywhere! even amoung the so called intellectuals and scientists!
| bones wrote: |
| The other major problem is mainly in alternative medicine. Some people with serious ailments will seek out Homeopathy and Reiki rather than take real medicine. While I'm from a country without socialized medicine, if I came from a country with socialized medicine and my tax money went to quacks who use crystals to realign sick people's auras, I'd be pretty pissed. |
well not all science medicine works! how many people have DIED from this so called new wonder drug which is FDA approved and being endorsed by science in turn is very expensive. PLENTY!!
drug companies and doctors don't want patients trying alternative medicines becuase they loose profits! they would perfer you spent your money with them even though they can't cure you either.
If I was dying from something and there was no medical cure. I would be open to alternative medicines. wouldn't you??
you speak of crystals or magic rocks as alternative medicine. yes these seem to be at the bottom of the pool! but actually there are a lot of alternative medicines which are not endorsed by mainstream science but were in fact invented by scientists! and have a proven success rate!
for example: Electromagnetic Colour Healing. (an alternative therapy which matches the frequency wavelength of a colour to that of a disease)
I have seen first hand this work!
http://colour-therapy.co.nz/html/history.html
[/quote] It's generally ok, but doesn't seem to add anything to the world. If you want to believe you are one with the universe and open your third eye, go for it. It just won't add anything to society. [/quote]
but it does add to society! it adds a way of living! a respect for others and this world! getting in tune with it all and finding the beauty in it.
Doesn't have to be about god, unless you need it to be..
| bones wrote: |
| I've tried meditation, tai chi, yoga and accupressure. Some of these have some benefits, but none of them have supernatural ones. |
can science reproduce the same effects in a test tube?
| bones wrote: |
| Tai chi and yoga are good anaerobic exercise. Meditation is probably good for relaxing and maybe even for bringing some clarity to your life. Tai chi also has some self defense benefits. There are some benefits, but if I have a serious medical or mental condition, I'll take medicine. |
yes I would take medicine too! as Im sure everyone would! including the 4 billion religious people!
scientists are suppose to be open to lateral thinking � what�s a fiction of today is a fact tomorrow!
to bad most seem closed minded! |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: ... |
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HAHAHHHAHAH this is fresh!!
so you saying everything you speak of is pure fact?? LOL Laughing |
Another strawman
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I guess 90 pages in this thread and 200 pages in the old thread didn't teach you anything...
BOTH SIDES ARE ARGUEING FROM IGNORANCE!
ohhh man why do I have to keep repeating myself to you guys...
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90 pages and you still don't understand an appeal to ignorance.
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NO BODY knows how we came to be!! NO BODY!!!
NOT YOU!! not MIND ME TOO!! not tomato!! NO BODY!!!!
and if you guys want to speak of certainty then you are speaking nothing more than from a dogmatic position! |
It's about certainty based upon evidence. Proof here is just an excuse for appeals to ignorance.
We don't know the sun is a big ball of burning gas until someone goes there and brings some of the gas back. HAHAHA! NOTHING MORE THAN DOGMA!
Given that gravity is only a theory, it's a toss up between Newton and the world sitting on the back of a big invisible tortoise. HAHA! Yankees v. Red Sox!
Current count: 3 appeals to ignorance*, 2 strawmen
*all the same argument |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| toowise wrote: |
| you just dont seem to be able to grasp this itwg. What happened later involved politics, professional soldiers etc, but the basic beginning was totally a matter of ignorant believers trying to enforce their beliefs on others. Dont move the yardstick further down the road, measure from the beginning and stop trying to justify the actions of the religious! |
I am not justifying their actions! I am just saying from what I know, that many wars in the past were fueled by greed.. Im not disagreeing with what you say either.. Im just saying what I say is also true in cases..
| wise wrote: |
| Without religion motivating them the incidence would never have occured and inasmuch 30 years of slaughter would never have happened! |
humans would have still slaughtered each other , they would have just changed the name from " IN The Name Of God" to In the Name Of .......
I don't think our history would have been different without religion regarding wars!
[quote="wise"Make a stand itwg. You either believe or you dont. If you dont believe why are you so opposed to science? If you do believe then we can set your inane viewpoints aside as yet another religious fanatic spouting out his brainwashed notions![/quote]
I am NOT opposed to science!! NEVER HAVE BEEN and NEVER WILL BE!!
just becuase I am opposed to Atheism doesn't make me opposed to science!
my stand is this!
I don't know if there is a god or not! but both sides present a solid case for design and no design! and I dont mean the Judeo religion, of burning bushes and virgin mothers etc!
I have always said on here, if there is is a god, it would be incomprehensible to understand. NOT A MAN who sits in a cloud!
I mean The Supreme Architect vs natural selection.
as an Agnostic I remain open to both sides..
and there is so much we don't know, about our mind, body, this world etc.
I feel there is a spirituality with everything here, but just don't know what it is.. 2008 I read a lot and watched a lot from the Atheist camp., and I also watched a lot from the ID camp! this year I will look into other views!
IF biologists, atheist or other non believing scientists can't crush the ID biologists, believers who are scientists.. then I remain open!
but this debate continues amoung them! so that tells me, its NOT final yet! |
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toowise
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: |
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intelligent design retards have been crushed in every debate
they have no standing whatsoever
if you wish to believe their insanity then you are free to do so, but at least have the dignity to admit its insanity! |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| toowise wrote: |
intelligent design retards have been crushed in every debate
they have no standing whatsoever
! |
so you say!
fact is they have standing thats why we still have debates!
if this was a shut case, there wouldnt be any debate now would there |
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