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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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 Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
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overlooking your clearly abusive language - the country of Israel is sitting on top of most, if not all, of traditional Palestinian homelands - there are in fact, Israelis living in homes that once belonged to Palestinians.
this is what "right of return" is all about
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Funnily enough there has NEVER been a sovereign nation of Palestine, so your use of the phrase "traditional Palestinian homelands" is simply neither accurate or true. |
Just because there was never a political sovereign entity, that doesn't mean that people did not live there prior to the buildup of Jewish refugees in the early 20th century.
There are Palestinians still alive today who can point out where they used to live in what is now the state if Israel. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
[
overlooking your clearly abusive language - the country of Israel is sitting on top of most, if not all, of traditional Palestinian homelands - there are in fact, Israelis living in homes that once belonged to Palestinians.
this is what "right of return" is all about
: |
Funnily enough there has NEVER been a sovereign nation of Palestine, so your use of the phrase "traditional Palestinian homelands" is simply neither accurate or true. |
this coming from someone who uses "funnily." 
seriously - do you even understand what I wrote - try again -
"traditional Palestinian homelands" does NOT equal "sovereign nation"
a sovereign nation is one with an established govt recognized by other countries. the Palestinian people are indigenous to the area - having lived there for many many generations. Jews also lived there as well.
When Israel was formed, it established borders and took control of what was traditionally considered Palestinian properties. This is the oldest ploy in the world - invade by brute force, then establish borders and declare everyone who doesn't agree with you to be outlaws.
Yes, the Jews have been mistreated, malaligned, massacred, and generally disparaged throughout history - it's really not surprising they'd turn into the abusers. Too frequently those who disagree are declared antisemites when nothing could be further from the truth.
Brutality is brutality no matter who does it. Israel is in the wrong here; they are declaring war against an enemy they have created by their own hands. Of course the Palestinians resist - why shouldn't they?
and yes - there's been very little in mainstream media to support or explain the non-Jewish side of this ongoing conflict. It's too bad because many innocents are suffering on account of the misinformation being spread. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
[
overlooking your clearly abusive language - the country of Israel is sitting on top of most, if not all, of traditional Palestinian homelands - there are in fact, Israelis living in homes that once belonged to Palestinians.
this is what "right of return" is all about
: |
Funnily enough there has NEVER been a sovereign nation of Palestine, so your use of the phrase "traditional Palestinian homelands" is simply neither accurate or true. |
this coming from someone who uses "funnily."
I see you wish to revisit your humilation in this thread /b]
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=127092&highlight=funnily
[b] In future try not to take issue when you've been proven wrong. It's what is called an own goal, and you just scored one nicely.
seriously - do you even understand what I wrote - try again -
"traditional Palestinian homelands" does NOT equal "sovereign nation"
a sovereign nation is one with an established govt recognized by other countries. the Palestinian people are indigenous to the area - having lived there for many many generations. Jews also lived there as well.
When Israel was formed, it established borders and took control of what was traditionally considered Palestinian properties. This is the oldest ploy in the world - invade by brute force, then establish borders and declare everyone who doesn't agree with you to be outlaws.
This is completely false. The Jewish state was established by the U.N. It did not invade. Stop making up history. Anyone with Google or another search engine can easily see every single thing you wrote was wrong. Nor did the Jews resort to armed force until THEY were attacked. Either read up on your history or admit you don't have a clue.
Yes, the Jews have been mistreated, malaligned, massacred, and generally disparaged throughout history - it's really not surprising they'd turn into the abusers. Too frequently those who disagree are declared antisemites when nothing could be further from the truth.
Brutality is brutality no matter who does it. Israel is in the wrong here; they are declaring war against an enemy they have created by their own hands. Of course the Palestinians resist - why shouldn't they?
No Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel for quite a while now. Of course the Jews are going to hit back. You don't stick your head into the lion's mouth and dare it to bite you.
and yes - there's been very little in mainstream media to support or explain the non-Jewish side of this ongoing conflict. It's too bad because many innocents are suffering on account of the misinformation being spread. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
[
overlooking your clearly abusive language - the country of Israel is sitting on top of most, if not all, of traditional Palestinian homelands - there are in fact, Israelis living in homes that once belonged to Palestinians.
this is what "right of return" is all about
: |
Funnily enough there has NEVER been a sovereign nation of Palestine, so your use of the phrase "traditional Palestinian homelands" is simply neither accurate or true. |
Just because there was never a political sovereign entity, that doesn't mean that people did not live there prior to the buildup of Jewish refugees in the early 20th century.
There are Palestinians still alive today who can point out where they used to live in what is now the state if Israel. |
Doesn't matter. The phrase "traditional Palestinian homelands" is wrong which was what I was pointing out. I wasn't disputing that people may have lived there. Regardless the founding of Israel was sanctioned by the U.N. so take it up with them.
And just because there are Palestinians who make claims about where they used to live, doesn't necessarily make it true. Take Canada for example. Someone once noticed that if ALL the Indian claims of traditional homelands/hunting grounds were true, it would amount to about 130% of Canada. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
this coming from someone who uses "funnily." |
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UM - you are seriously delusional if you think for one moment I have ever been humiliated on this forum - just as you are quite mistaken about your pathetic attempts at providing links to - huh? what exactly?
Hint: trying to use "funnily" would make anyone look like an absolute fool - really - it does - don't you realize that?? c'mon - seriously??
furthermore, understanding what's going on in the ME takes a great deal of effort, time and analysis. It's not something for people who read a few forums, listen to the reports from one source such as CNN and then assume they know what's going on enough to opine a thoughtful comment.
honestly, you simply aren't up to speed enough to join the discussion and that's why people often leave the thread when you start in - because no one cares to try and explain to you when it's so obvious you aren't interested in the facts, aren't intelligent enough to learn what the facts are and aren't willing to spend the energy it takes to learn the facts about the subject matter at hand. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Funny
Pronunciation: \ˈfə-nē\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): fun�ni�er; fun�ni�est
Date: 1756
1 a: affording light mirth and laughter : amusing
b: seeking or intended to amuse : facetious
2: differing from the ordinary in a suspicious, perplexing, quaint, or eccentric way : peculiar �often used as a sentence modifier <funny, things didn't turn out the way we planned>
3: involving trickery or deception <told his prisoner not to try anything funny>
� fun�ni�ly \ˈfə-nə-lē\ adverb
� fun�ni�ness \ˈfə-nē-nəs\ noun
� funny adverb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIu0jQ5TaRQ |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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I like the post about how Israel does not have the ability to make peace with the Palestineans - only the Palestineans have the power to bring peace.
By the law of averages, I would say there are probably Israelis who do not want peace but I'm willing to wager the vast majority of Israelis would jump at the opportunity to live peacefully side by side with the Palestineans.
I know this may not be the most PC thing to say in the world but while I am sympathetic for the Palestineans that have lost land if we look back to the history of the world and tried to right every wrong - some things just cannot be done. Find peace and prosper. Imagine all the international aid that would flow into Palestine if a relatively-democratic and peaceful government could be established! I'm sure that money and the safety of their children would more than compensate for lost land.
But, the Palestineans have not chosen that route. It would certainly put Israel on notice. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| toowise wrote: |
The founding of Isreal
British Mandate of Palestine was formed in 1947, in 1948 Isreal declaired independance from the mandate of palestine and thus Isreal was born. In return they were attacked by pretty much every country in that area. Isreal won, and kept the land they had conquered, much like any country throughout history. But because they took it away from arabs they are the bad boys now...please 
Isreal did not start off by attacking other countries, they defended themselves, so are you f___ing serious? |
I really enjoy reading your selective interpretation of history.
Do you really think the Zionists were solely intent on staying withing the boundaries given to them under the British mandate?
I mean come one! They (the Zionists) had greater territorial aspirations form the get-go. If you don't believe this then you're kidding yourself.
Following the British Mandate and for at least 30 years prior to that there had been an ever increasing presence of Jewish refugees coming to Palestine.
How do you think the Palestinian people should of reacted to this? And how do you think they should have reacted once the British handed over portions of their own territory to create an Israeli state?
Of course their going to attack! They were completely justified to do so.
The Israelis used this attack (and I hesitate to call it an attack because the Israelis were also attacking the Palestinians prior to and immediately after the mandate - along with using terrorist tactics to get the British to leave) along with the wars in '54 and '67 to acquire more territory. A plan they had from the beginning.
Yes, acquiring more territory afforded Israel more room to protect themselves, but don't fool yourself that they didn't aspire to do this all along in order to restore in whole the Biblical lands of Israel.
The Zionists had a expansionist colonialist mindset from the beginning of the 1900s. Long before the Sykes-Pico agreement and the British Mandate.
The Palestinians were witness to this.
Yes, they attacked the Israelis, but let's not forget that the Israelis also did much of the attacking and in many cases initiated it. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10069.shtml
Why would Israel bomb a university?
Dr. Akram Habeeb writing from the occupied Gaza Strip, Live from Palestine, 29 December 2008
The Islamic University of Gaza, February 2007. (Wesam Saleh/MaanImages)
As a Fulbright scholar and professor of American literature at the Islamic University of Gaza (IUG), I have always preferred to keep silent about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I always felt that it was my mission to preach love and peaceful coexistence. However, Israel's massive offensive against the Gaza Strip has spurred me to speak out.
Last night, during the second night of Israel's unprecedented attack on Gaza, I was awakened by the deafening sound of intensive bombardment. When I learned that Israel had bombed my university with American-made F-16s, I realized that its "target bank" had gone bankrupt. Of course Israeli politicians and generals would claim that IUG is a Hamas stronghold and that it preaches terrorism.
As an independent professor, not affiliated with any political party, I can say that IUG is an academic institution which embraces a wide spectrum of political affinities. I see it as prestigious university which encourages liberalism and free thought. This personal point view might seem to be biased; therefore, I would invite anyone who would doubt about my assertions to browse IUG's website and research its history. They would learn about its membership in various international academic institutions, the active role its professors play in scholarly research as well as prizes and research grants they have received.
Why would Israel bomb a university? Israel did not only target my university last night. It also bombed mosques, pharmacies and homes. In Jabaliya refugee camp Israeli bombs killed four little girls, sisters from the Balousha family. In Rafah they killed three brothers, aged 6, 12 and 14. They also killed a mother, along with her one-year-old child from the Kishko family in Gaza City.
These acts made me reflect on some of the commandments given by God to the "Chosen People:" Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house. No one could be chosen by God to annex the land of other people and kill them. Israel made these ethical choices by itself. Israel itself chose to wage its wars to eliminate the indigenous people of Palestine.
Dr. Akram Habeeb is Assistant Professor of American Literature at the Islamic University of Gaza. |
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Taiwantroll
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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There has been much said, but rather than quote so many I will just write what I have read about the founding of the state of Israel.
Yes, there were an increasing number of Jewish refugees in Palestine after World War 2. They were returning home. Let us not forget that the land of Palestine belonged to the Jews before it belonged to the Palestinians. And at the time Palestine was an occupied British territory.
In the beginning, Jews were content to buy land and settle living side by side with their Arab neighbors. However as their numbers increased the Arab population became fearful and began to organize raids into Jewish settlements. The Jews, yet again, found that they needed to defend themselves.
After the UN partitioned Palestine Arabs continued to raid Jewish settlements and so Israel declared itself a state in order to better defend itself from its Arab neighbors.
And in a series of wars, all initiated by Arab aggressors, and coming from more than one front, Israel not only successfully defended itself but also make land gains. However, it should be noted that those land gains were in territories which posed the greatest risk for continued Arab raids.
And so, in every case, Israel was defending itself against insurmountable odds.
And what crimes against humanity? Israel does not employ suicide bombers or lob makeshift missiles into Arab settlements.
And I think most importantly (something which posters here seem to have overlooked) is the fact that Israel only requires that Gaza take responsibility for itself. If Gaza,
1) elected a non-terrorist government
2) recognized Israel's right to exist
3) stopped unprovoked attacks on Israel
...then the war would end and there could be peace.
Gaza, on the other hand, wants only to murder Israeli citizens. Hamas openly advocates war with the Jews. The Hamas charter states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad." |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
this coming from someone who uses "funnily." |
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UM - you are seriously delusional if you think for one moment I have ever been humiliated on this forum - just as you are quite mistaken about your pathetic attempts at providing links to - huh? what exactly?
The link to where you were humilated and left after several people proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you were wrong. And now you want to bring it all up again
Hint: trying to use "funnily" would make anyone look like an absolute fool - really - it does - don't you realize that?? c'mon - seriously??
Hint. I used funnily to demonstrate that you don't have a clue about what is going on.
furthermore, understanding what's going on in the ME takes a great deal of effort, time and analysis. It's not something for people who read a few forums, listen to the reports from one source such as CNN and then assume they know what's going on enough to opine a thoughtful comment.
Then stop talking. I've already shown that you don't know what is going on. And anybody can see this by simply using Google..
honestly, you simply aren't up to speed enough to join the discussion and that's why people often leave the thread when you start in - because no one cares to try and explain to you when it's so obvious you aren't interested in the facts, aren't intelligent enough to learn what the facts are and aren't willing to spend the energy it takes to learn the facts about the subject matter at hand. |
Incorrect. People leave because they've been proven wrong (like you did in that other thread) or because there is nothing more to say. And that is funny coming from you who made up a bunch of stuff that had no relation to the facts. And in the other thread it was clear who wasn't interested in the facts and who wasn't intelligent enough to learn about them. And here you are doing it all over again...you certainly like digging yourself into a hole.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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toowise
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Do you really think the Zionists were solely intent on staying withing the boundaries given to them under the British mandate? |
I dont pretend to know what they were thinking!
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| I mean come one! They (the Zionists) had greater territorial aspirations form the get-go. If you don't believe this then you're kidding yourself. |
arrogant speculation on your part, who's kidding who?
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| Following the British Mandate and for at least 30 years prior to that there had been an ever increasing presence of Jewish refugees coming to Palestine. |
why is that? Is it due to an increasing hostility and pressure from islamic forces in the area? Do you have any stats to back this up or is it simply more speculation dripping from your ass?
| Quote: |
| How do you think the Palestinian people should of reacted to this? And how do you think they should have reacted once the British handed over portions of their own territory to create an Israeli state? |
there has never been a palestinian people, are you so ignorant of history?
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| Of course their going to attack! They were completely justified to do so. |
in that case Isreal is more than justified by responding in kind.....wake up and smell the coffee!
| Quote: |
| The Israelis used this attack (and I hesitate to call it an attack because the Israelis were also attacking the Palestinians prior to and immediately after the mandate - along with using terrorist tactics to get the British to leave) along with the wars in '54 and '67 to acquire more territory. A plan they had from the beginning. |
as were the so called palestinines ...why judge one but not the other?
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| Yes, acquiring more territory afforded Israel more room to protect themselves, but don't fool yourself that they didn't aspire to do this all along in order to restore in whole the Biblical lands of Israel. |
didnt happen, are you familiar with the strawman argument? look into it you have it mastered!
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| The Zionists had a expansionist colonialist mindset from the beginning of the 1900s. Long before the Sykes-Pico agreement and the British Mandate. |
seig heil mein fuhrer! neo nazi much>?
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The Palestinians were witness to this.
Yes, they attacked the Israelis, but let's not forget that the Israelis also did much of the attacking and in many cases initiated it. |
so you admit they attacked isreal but try to justify it with the chicken and the egg argument, are you intelligent? |
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the ireland
Joined: 11 May 2008
Location: korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sapa wrote: |
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| But when the IRA were firing mortars over the border into Northern Ireland, when their guerrillas were crossing from the Republic to attack police stations and Protestants, did Britain unleash the RAF on the Irish Republic? Did the RAF bomb churches and tankers and police stations and zap 300 civilians to teach the Irish a lesson? No, it did not. Because the world would have seen it as criminal behaviour. We didn't want to lower ourselves to the IRA's level. |
from Robert Fisk - I highly recommend anyone to read his articles or books for an honest take on the Middle East. |
Okay, I can't just let that comment slide!!! when the IRA were firing mortars over the border???? over the border at what?? have you ever see the border around Northern IReland and the Republic??? there is nothing to fire at, trust me, I live there. all thats there are some country farm houses owned by people who live and socialise on boths sides (generally the side where the nearest town is)
and as for the raf bombing Ireland. that's just an idiotic comment as most of the members of the IRA who were bombing northern Ireland ( and i'm not denying their terrorist attacks) where actually from northern ireland (and going by british belief, this is part of the United Kingdom, so they would have to bomb their own country, not irelands, because that were the active members were from)
The britis government did not sent in the raf to bomb ireland, instead they sent in the sas to kill and disable (but mostly murder) anyone thought to be involved in any parimilitary activities (sorry and republican paramilitary activity). they butchered men who were members of the IRA and the british army even killed and hung up a man from my town in his butchers shop and gutted him. granted he was a member of the IRA and if he had planted bombs then he deserved to be jailed, but he did not deserves than, on the same night they did that they also attacked a van of 6 men and riddles it with bullets killing all occupants and an innocent man who was cycling by.
So don't think your army is all rosy!! |
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browneyedgirl
Joined: 17 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Protesting Israeli aggression - I don't get it |
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When Israel is attacked it gets buried in the last page of the New York Times with no pictures. When Israel strikes back it makes the front page of the paper and then the broadcast stations actually pick it up. They do overdo it when they attack, but they didn't start it. Another thing is that a lot of Islamic countries are now kicking out their Christian populations in a form of ethnic cleansing, and that's only been covered in the Spanish media.
If Israel is so horrible to Arabs, why do the Israeli-Arab citizens still live there? Because Israel subsidizes its citizens with healthcare and Israel's version of welfare; something you would never see in an Islamic country for non-Muslims. Do you think Saudi Arabia would give welfare checks to a Jewish family living there? Never. But Israel does that for it's Arab citizens even though they don't have to. |
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roknroll
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:29 am Post subject: |
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quote="toowise"]
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If they love death so much, why do they wail in the streets and chant slogans about taking revenge? Shouldn't they be thanking the Israelis?
On another note, the response taken by Israel is not a 'measured' one in that they protect themselves only as much as is necessary. It's no secret that if one Israeli gets killed, they kill 3,4,10 etc Arabs to send a message. (the deterence factor that never really seems to help). |
Because revenge is a dark emotion, which ties into death. Methinks you are being too literal in your narrowminded interpretation!
If only you had an inkling that you were actually refering to yourself! Oh the irony. Speaking of which, seeing as it clearly has to be pointed out to you, this was a statement employing the use of irony and rhetoric solely for amusement (albeit, perhaps tasteless and insensitive) and NOT to be taken LITERALLY.
For further help, here are some helpful definitions:
Irony:
a.The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
b.An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
c.A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.
And while I'm at it:
| Quote: |
| Revenge seems to stress the idea of retaliation a bit more strongly and implies real hatred as its motivation. ["The Columbia Guide to Standard American English," 1993] |
[color=green]Oh, a dark emotion tied to death, how profound and thanks for that (cus I know you'll be confused-->This IS SARCASM).
Where do you get your stats? hamas.com?
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| Over the past five days, close to 400 Palestinians have lost their lives to Israel�s aerial attacks, compared with four Israelis who have died as a result of Hamas rocket fire over the past four days. (Since 2004, 15 Israelis have died as a result of Hamas rocket fire.) |
Here's some info from one paper, you do the math Einstein. Now, do you also need to actually here it from Israeli reps or can you put 2 and 2 together? Try listening to them first before you spout off (yes, this implies that you can't put 2 and 2 together).
Until palestinians stop rewarding the families of suicide bombers, teaching their children to throw stones at armed soldiers, allowing terrorists to store weapons and hide in mosques they will continue to be self defeating.
Besides highlighting your take on the situation, what does this have to do with my post? Did you notice that the first statement 'appears' pro Israeli and the second statement 'appears' pro palestinian? Obviously not. Let me help you discern the incongruity. First, me make joke. Second, me state the obvious. All the while, not advocating for one side or the other.
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| I think anyone can agree that throughout Israel's history they have committed far more atrocities against the Palestinians and Lebanese than have been committed against them. |
a very one sided look at the situation! How many times has Isreal unprovoked blantantly attacked the civilian population of a neighboring country? How many times has Isreal invaded its neighbors?
Fact of the matter is Isreal is in one of the most intolerant regions on the planet, surrounded by nations that are hostile towards it and have been since its conception. Their people have been attacked, bombed, shot, rocketed on a daily basis for almost 50 years. Yet when they go in after the terrorists responsible those cowards hide in mosques, schools, or historic buildings.
IMO Isreal should send in gunships and strafe the funerals of terrorists where all those idiots are chanting and swearing vengeance. Perhaps then they would learn!
This speaks volumes of where your head is at. Which leaves you little room to speak about Hamas, as you sound just like them. Or am I taking this to literally?
[/quote] |
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