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jeni_escobar
Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Location: Gwangmyeung
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 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: L and R |
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It has always baffled me that Koreans and Japanese can't hear the difference between L and R and get them confused so much. Then I realized that in Spanish, when I say the words "reloj" and "alrededor" which have L and R sounds close together, I have a hard time getting it right, too!
Another interesting language note: I'm reading Guns, Germs and Steel, and in the chapter on the evolution of writing, Diamond talks about the ancient Linear B of Mycenian Greece which was one of the first known written languages. Apparently the symbols for L and R; B P and Ph; G K and KH were the same. I'm just starting to learn Korean now, and find it interesting that they too combine L and R, B and P, and G and K in the alphabet. I find the pronunciation of N with a D sound very interesting, as well as Ms that sound like Bs, and have never thought those two particular sounds could be related. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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M and B, notice the shape of the Hangeul respective letters. Simalar. Also the P letter.
The relationship is at the back of the nose. M is a nasal fricative; but the nasal passage is closed for the B and so the sound is forced through the mouth. P is only B unvoiced. . .
N, D and T have the same relationship. Again, the relationship is shown in the actual form of the Hanguel. All share the "N" shape. |
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i4NI
Joined: 17 May 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: L and R |
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| jeni_escobar wrote: |
It has always baffled me that Koreans and Japanese can't hear the difference between L and R and get them confused so much. Then I realized that in Spanish, when I say the words "reloj" and "alrededor" which have L and R sounds close together, I have a hard time getting it right, too!
Another interesting language note: I'm reading Guns, Germs and Steel, and in the chapter on the evolution of writing, Diamond talks about the ancient Linear B of Mycenian Greece which was one of the first known written languages. Apparently the symbols for L and R; B P and Ph; G K and KH were the same. I'm just starting to learn Korean now, and find it interesting that they too combine L and R, B and P, and G and K in the alphabet. I find the pronunciation of N with a D sound very interesting, as well as Ms that sound like Bs, and have never thought those two particular sounds could be related. |
You'll understand when you learn more Korean. The ㄹ is a /r/ and an /l/ sound depending on where it's positioned. Seems most Koreans don't even realize the sound alternates.
Also the /g/ and /k/ are technically the same since there are letters for the aspirated versions. But when the average English speaker think of for example /k/ sound they usually think of the aspirated k sound since they have no background in linguistics. Same goes for p sound.
The ㅁ(m) that goes to a ㅂ(b) sound is due to a consonant assimilation rule.
You will also learn you can't combine nasal sounds with ㄹ sound because it's uncomfortable to go from a nasal sound to the Korean /r/ sound, which is much different from the English /r/ since there is no contact made with your tongue.
ㄴ followed by an ㄹ = both sounds become /l/ sounds.
신림 (shin rim --> shil lim)
신라 (shin ra --> shil la)
ㅇ followed by ㄹ = ㄹ becomes a nasal /n/ sound
종로 (jong ro --> jong no)
I won't spoil the fun for you though, you'll come to discover the rest hopefully  |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
M and B, notice the shape of the Hangeul respective letters. Simalar. Also the P letter.
The relationship is at the back of the nose. M is a nasal fricative; but the nasal passage is closed for the B and so the sound is forced through the mouth. P is only B unvoiced. . .
N, D and T have the same relationship. Again, the relationship is shown in the actual form of the Hanguel. All share the "N" shape. |
Sounds like someone who actually knows something about linguistics.
I always laugh when I hear people complaining about how Korean doesn't have all possible sounds. No language does, and even the almighty English has a few linguistic holes in it. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| Omkara wrote: |
M and B, notice the shape of the Hangeul respective letters. Simalar. Also the P letter.
The relationship is at the back of the nose. M is a nasal fricative; but the nasal passage is closed for the B and so the sound is forced through the mouth. P is only B unvoiced. . .
N, D and T have the same relationship. Again, the relationship is shown in the actual form of the Hanguel. All share the "N" shape. |
Sounds like someone who actually knows something about linguistics.
I always laugh when I hear people complaining about how Korean doesn't have all possible sounds. No language does, and even the almighty English has a few linguistic holes in it. |
No sh*t. Just started studying Korean more seriously recently and every now and then there's a sound combination that I just cannot even fathom the beginnings of how to reproduce.
I need a Korean teacher.... |
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Jammer113
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: |
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It certainly is interesting to notice how different languages put sounds together.
For the life of me, I can't hear the difference between 전국 (entire country) and 천국 (Heaven). Both ㅈ and ㅊ are silent and I can't distinguish the aspiration. After hours of practice, I can usually pronounce them correct, but I still can't hear them. This has actually caused some pretty funny mixups in conversations. I do better with ㄱ/ㅋ... not sure why.
We mix letters and sounds in English, too.. the (American) pronunciations of T in "tub" "butter" and "button" are all totally different. In fact, the "t" in "tub" would be represented in Korean by a ㅌ and the tt in "butter" would be represented by a ㄹ. Unfortunately, they don't. They call it "버터". Between that and the lack of stress on the first syllable, it sounds horribly konglish to me. I wonder if it sounds better to an Englishman.... |
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