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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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 Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| The OP spelled favor wrong. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ReeseDog wrote: |
| The OP spelled favor wrong. |
You're an idiot! |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| ReeseDog wrote: |
| The OP spelled favor wrong. |
You're an idiot! |
Just trying to make light of an otherwise all-around depressing situation. You know - a little comic relief?
Snappy comeback, by the way. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
| TexasPete wrote: |
I don't have a grand plan for the Palestinians. But we see over and over and over again what Israel does when they get rockets fired at them. Eradicate Palestinian leadership, infrastructure, people and ability to do anything productive. Hamas and the Palestinians should realize that if you take away the "excuse" Israel has to retaliate so massively all the time, then pretty soon Israel doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. |
Hamas tried this already and got kicked in the balls for it's trouble by most of the international community. |
I wonder why . . . |
Stalling for time in order to make more 'facts on the ground' is Israel's strategy for clinging to much of the West Bank. Therefore, negotiating, which in turn could lead to compromising, is what Israel carefully avoids. Even in the Oslo talks, Ehud Barack refused to write down any of his 'offers' and it is unclear as to exactly what he was going to offer. He made it deliberately unclear as he didn't want to commit to the kind of compromises that Clinton and the international community were hoping for.
This sticking point (that Hamas do not recognise Israel) is a very convenient one, and if it didn't exist, Isreal would just make another excuse. But what Israel should Hamas recognise? The one behind the Green Line? Israel refuses to limit itself to the Green Line, and will not give details of what it will eventually consider to be its borders. It's also hypocritical, as Israel itself doesn't formally recognise the Palestinians as having a right to a nation, nor will it define in any detail how they would see such a nation reified.
Lastly, Hamas have frequently and loudly hinted that they do intend to recognise Israel behind the Green Line. Because of their silly charter, they can not say it in so many words. But they've intimated a way to get around this, without technically going against their charter. A pragmatic Israel, that truly wanted peace over more annexations would have found a workable solution by now.
No, Kuros. I do not like Hamas - I do not like politics mixed with religion . But I recognise that many Palestinians see them as the only alternative to Fatah, and I understand very well why they lost faith in a corrupt and quisling Fatah. I can see that even if I myself were Palestinian, even a secular or Christian Palestinian, I would probably now choose Hamas over Fatah. The international community should accept the leadership that Gazans have chosen, and deal with it, as we do with all other democratically chosen leaderships (if only we could have refused to recognise your dreadful Bush administration!). I also recognise that there are pragmatic elements in Hamas, and we should be encouraging these, not ignoring (and thereby weakening) them.
And these strategies - the embargo and these bombardments - serve only to strengthen Hamas. Israel has kept the borders closed for more than 2 years now, only opening them for the occasional (but inadequate) supply of humanitarian aid. Desperate starving Gazans have long begun to see Hamas as their lifeline. The Israelis bomb tunnels claiming they are for smuggling weapons, but they are also for smuggling in much needed food and medicine, to distribute to a desperate population (more than half of whom are children btw). So the people go to Hamas for their salvation. And as we have seen in Lebanon, this cruel and savage bombardment of the populace will not turn them against Hamas, but rather it will make them hate and blame Israel more, and see them stand more firmly behind Hamas as the Lebanese did Hezbollah.
This is not the strategy born of longterm vision. Actually, I believe the Israelis know it will do nothing to improve their security or acheive peace. Rather it will have the short-term reward of making the imcumbent government more popular (and polls show this to be true) and enable them to win the next election. It is also an attempt to redeem their image after the disasterous Lebanon War of 2006, which turned out to be an own goal.
Clarification: when I refer to 'Israelis' I mean the Israeli leadership, and not the general population. |
Actually, I agree with this post on the most general of levels. Israel is in a bad spot, and militant Palestinians (as opposed to the 80% of Palestinians who are not militant) are not even entirely to blame. The post is still all too heavy with pro-Palestinian (or if you prefer anti-Israel) sentiment for my tastes. But whatever, people pick sides. I can't really say that one side here is more just than the other, although as you hint, there are just Israelis and Palestinians throughout the conflict.
I don't agree that Israel would be taking these actions Hamas provocations or no Hamas provocations. I think enough of Israel understands the current status quo is unacceptable. I think my link shows that Hamas has come to the (I think correct) understanding that the Palestinians have the upper hand in the long-run, and time is on their side. However, Hamas does not necessarily share in this boon. At least not while Fatah is there.
Israel cannot afford to look weak. Lebanon was pretty much a disaster, and I sympathize much more with Israel in that conflict because of the Iranian-Syrian dimension. That does not mean I condone their reckless tactics that hurt the Lebanese people. In fact, its pretty clear such tactics don't work, anyway.
I expect Israel's strikes will be followed by a cease-fire. I think much of the int'l community no longer cares. There's not enough sympathy or belief in the good intentions of the three political entities for the int'l community to intervene. America's position is weird and anachronistic, born out of a sympathy that should have faded with the demise of the Cold War threat (at least re: the Palestinians, not so much re: Hezbollah/Iran).
I wonder how all of this plays into the one very positive note in the region, the coming peace talks between Syria and Israel. It seems as the Bush Administration, in its full incompetence, has only strengthened the position of Bashar al-Assad. Thus, Assad is willing to come to the table with the Israelis. I really can't see what will happen in the region beyond that. But it seems the Israelis and the Syrians both should really want to come to some peace arrangement. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| If my posts are as you say "anti-Israeli" (a rather underhand accusation) then I must say your posts regularly smack of "anti-Palestinian", or anti-Arabness if you like. Perhaps levelling such insults my way distracts you from the disturbing reality that you regularly attempt to justify and tacitly condone the bombs and shells that fall on captive civillian populatons. I sometimes find myself wondering how you reconcile this with your religious beliefs. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'm anti-Hamas.
Who's with me? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| (raises hand) |
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samcheokguy
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Location: Samcheok G-do
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Hamas, a democratic party, that promises an islamic state. A non-sequitor, if not a paradox. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle managed to pinch this out and wrote: |
Israel does not launch missiles or bombs with the intent to kill civilians. |
Something stinks around here and it's wearing a bow tie.
Last edited by bangbayed on Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:18 am; edited 2 times in total |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
I'm anti-Hamas.
Who's with me? |
I'm not sure, let me look at my paycheck...
Yes! I see enough money in taxes taken out of my paycheck that Israel should consider me an official sponsor of the 2009 Gaza Ghetto Uprising Crackdown & Smackdown and put a sticker of my avatar on their tanks the way NASCAR drivers advertise their sponsors. |
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Jeff's Cigarettes
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Hamas followers are little better than stone-age monkeys. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Hamas Slogan: "You love life, but we love death" |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| If my posts are as you say "anti-Israeli" (a rather underhand accusation) then I must say your posts regularly smack of "anti-Palestinian", or anti-Arabness if you like. |
I suppose I should have predicted this response. I assure you it does not offend me in the slightest. Maybe I do have a natural predilection for Israel. But I didn't accuse your posts of being anti-Israeli.
| Quote: |
| Perhaps levelling such insults my way distracts you from the disturbing reality that you regularly attempt to justify and tacitly condone the bombs and shells that fall on captive civillian populatons. |
What insults? I simply called your post anti-Israel in tone. Didn't I say I agreed with much within the post?
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| I sometimes find myself wondering how you reconcile this with your religious beliefs. |
Oh, this is truly fascinating. What religious beliefs would those be? |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
I'm anti-Hamas.
Who's with me? |
Absolutely. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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All liberals should be anti-Hamas, because Hamas is exactly like the Republican Party.
1. They're each best known around the world for being obnoxiously militant.
2. They both habitually start military conflicts, and talk a lot of shit without being able to back it up.
3. Khaled Meshaal hides during this current war. Bush hid in America during Vietnam. Cheney got five deferments during Vietnam.
4. They're both fanatically religious and intolerant moral crusaders.
5. They both dumb down their people by promoting religious theories instead of scientific facts in their school systems. |
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