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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: 10 QUESTIONS AWAITING ANSWERS FROM GAZAN SYMPATHIZERS |
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What you will not hear on the BBC, CBC, or Al-Jazeerah about the current crisis in Gaza are any attempts to address much less answer these questions:
1. How can you expect Israel to negotiate with Hamas, which has vowed to destroy its country?
2. How do you expect us to believe that Hamas represents the will of the Gazan people when it usurped the authority of Abbas?
3. How long did you expect the Jews to endure relentless mortar and missile attacks before they retaliated?
4. Which nation anywhere in the world would continue to endure being on high alert while states like Iran rearm its enemies and then use it as a pretext to incite condemnation against Israel in the intl community?
5. Where was the public outcry from the Arab League when Hamas repeatedly violated the ceasefire accords over the past two years and continues to deliberately target Jewish civilians?
6. Where is the indignation at Hamas schooling little children through anti-Jewish ceremonies and hides among them in order to draw Israeli fire?
7. Why doesn't the UN insist on having Iran halt its smuggling of weapons into Gaza?
8. Where was the UN when the Israeli government repeatedly complained of violations of the ceasefire by Hamas?
9. How does one negotiate in good faith with a terrorist organization like Hamas which has never renounced the use of force in settling its grievances?
10. Why is Libya, a former terrorist state, allowed to speak for the will of the Arab people by putting forward a resolution in the UN Security Council?
Until we hear thoughtful and informed answers to these questions, I'll just keep fanning away the smoke you're trying to blow up my ass.
Last edited by ManintheMiddle on Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard encouraging words from some of the Palestinians and other Arab entities on CNN this morning, I stress some.
James Zogby made some interesting statements also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Zogby
West Bank politicians are calling for Hamas to stop missile attacks.
I was going to give some mock answers to your questions but I decided it would be far too cruel. I've been criticized for my sarcasm on this issue. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: Re: 10 QUESTIONS AWAITING ANSWERS FROM GAZAN SYMPATHIZERS |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| What you will not hear on the BBC, CBC, or Al-Jazeerah about the current crisis in Gaza are any attempts to address much less answer these questions: |
I am not a Gazan Sympathizer, though that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for Gazan civilians. I will answer your ten questions, in detail.
| Quote: |
| 1. How can you expect Israel to negotiate with Hamas, which has vowed to destroy its country? |
You can't expect that. Someone on another thread has put forward the idea that the Hamas leadership doesn't really agree with the Hamas charter that calls for destruction of Israel, but that it would be difficult to change this language, and that Israel knows that Hamas doesn't really want to extinguish its existence. All of this may be true, but it is, at best, apocryphal. If the leadeship of Hamas is serious about a negotiated peace, they need to change the charter.
| Quote: |
| 2. How do you expect us to believe that Hamas represents the will of the Gazan people when it usurped the authority of Abbas? |
I'm not sure "usurped" is the correct word here, since they did so by way of an election. (And I think that election wasn't a good idea.)
| Quote: |
| 3. How long did you expect the Jews to endure relentless mortar and missile attacks before they retaliated? |
That really is an excellent question.
| Quote: |
| 4. Which nation anywhere in the world would continue to endure being on high alert while states like Iran rearm its enemies and then use it as a pretext to incite condemnation against Israel in the intl community? |
Ditto
| Quote: |
| 5. Where was the public outcry from the Arab League when Hamas repeatedly violated the ceasefire accords over the past two years and continues to deliberately target Jewish civilians? |
Or, for that matter, where was the outcry from the West? Or, for that matter, where was the outcry from the West when the Israelis enforced an all-but total ban on shipments of goods to Gaza? I know, they did it to prevent arms from flowing in, but it also had the effect of forcing almost two million people to live in squalor, which is not a smart strategy if you're interested in winning hearts and minds.
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| 6. Where is the indignation at Hamas schooling little children through anti-Jewish ceremonies and hides among them in order to draw Israeli fire? |
Where indeed? I realize that Gaza is not much more than an utterly civilian area, but I have spoken before on this board about the vile practice of hiding military emplacements amidst civilian populations. As to the education system, there is very little difference here than what has taken place on both sides for the last 60 years.
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| 7. Why doesn't the UN insist on having Iran halt its smuggling of weapons into Gaza? |
Because the U.N. usually has in its Security Council at least one nation that would veto such a move.
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| 8. Where was the UN when the Israeli government repeatedly complained of violations of the ceasefire by Hamas? |
See above. But see also the conditions of that cease fire, which stiputlated that Israel had every right to, in effect, lay siege to Gaza, which is not usual when we think of the terms of cease fires.
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| 9. How does one negotiate in good faith with a terrorist organization like Hamas which has never renounced the use of force in settling its grievances? |
But then, neither has Israel ever renounced violence to resolve its grievances.
| Quote: |
| 10. Why is Libya, a former terrorist state, allowed to speak for the will of the Arab people by putting forward a resolution in the UN Security Council? |
Because it currently holds a seat on the Security Council. Please note that the resolution they proposed was not enacted. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Gazan sympathizer? Is that a bad thing? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I support Israel and oppose Hamas. But I wanted to contribute and clarify here...
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| 3. How long did you expect the Jews to endure relentless mortar and missile attacks before they retaliated? |
The Palestinians wanted to provoke an Israeli response; they wanted to provoke this specific Israeli response. They lured Tel Aviv in through these attacks because they are waging a propaganda war -- unlike Israel, who is waging a military war.
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| 6. Where is the indignation at Hamas schooling little children through anti-Jewish ceremonies and hides among them in order to draw Israeli fire? |
Excellent question. I think many out there in the world understand this and willingly let the Palestinians play them simply because the Israelis outmatch the Palestinians in military power. Very childish.
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| 7. Why doesn't the UN insist on having Iran halt its smuggling of weapons into Gaza? |
Tehran officially denies this and continues it covertly. We ran a similar program, multilaterally (the British, the Egyptians, the Saudis, and, of course, the Pakistanis, joined as as full partners) against the Soviets in Afghanistan.
We should not ask for justice but make it -- especially from such a worthless body as the United Nations. We need to identify Iran's methods and supply chains and destroy them in the field. This means, I am afraid, getting into Syria and Lebanon and a stronger naval presence in the Eastern Med. C'est la vie.
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| 10. Why is Libya, a former terrorist state, allowed to speak for the will of the Arab people by putting forward a resolution in the UN Security Council? |
We are giving the Libyan govt much leeway these days. It has renounced weapons of mass destruction and moved to normalize relations with us. It ought to speak its mind as it pleases. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher reminded:
| Quote: |
ManintheMiddle wrote:
10. Why is Libya, a former terrorist state, allowed to speak for the will of the Arab people by putting forward a resolution in the UN Security Council?
We are giving the Libyan govt much leeway these days. It has renounced weapons of mass destruction and moved to normalize relations with us. It ought to speak its mind as it pleases. |
Yes, that's correct but my larger concern is this: Why did not even one Arab state try to dissuade Libya from forwarding the resolution? Why didn't the Arab League insist on a far more moderate country, like Jordan or even Kuwait? In other words, how can a resolution from a former terrorist state have any moral clout?
daskalos noted:
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| But then, neither has Israel ever renounced violence to resolve its grievances. |
True, but then there's a world of difference between violence done in self-defense and violence committed to incite public sympathy, spread fear, and recruit more terrorists. |
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Jeff's Cigarettes
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Please help in the Gaza conflict....donate here:
http://pizzaidf.org/ |
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Bucheonguy
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: |
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You're vision of what's going on is completely messed up. I don't even want to get into how wrong your facts are. I'll just present you with the plain logic and you can decide for your what you think.
60 years ago your country was taken away from you. Today, your people live in Nazi style ghettos, are being starved and mass murdered. One person fires a rocket at the people who are systematically killing your people. Maybe this rocket hits someone maybe it doesn't. The entire might of the army launches a strike that targets innocent people killing hundreds of people! Hundreds of starving, innocent people.
I personally would be a little anti Isreal too if I was in this situation.
When the French fought the Nazi's they were called the "resistance." When the American's rebelled against the British they were Sons of Liberty. They were patriots. They were freedom fighters.
When the Palestinians fight against an oppressive, genocidal regime they are called... terrorists. If I lived in Gaza I'd probably fight too instead of slowly waiting for death. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| Bucheonguy wrote: |
You're vision of what's going on is completely messed up. I don't even want to get into how wrong your facts are. I'll just present you with the plain logic and you can decide for your what you think.
60 years ago your country was taken away from you. Today, your people live in Nazi style ghettos, are being starved and mass murdered. One person fires a rocket at the people who are systematically killing your people. Maybe this rocket hits someone maybe it doesn't. The entire might of the army launches a strike that targets innocent people killing hundreds of people! Hundreds of starving, innocent people.
I personally would be a little anti Isreal too if I was in this situation.
When the French fought the Nazi's they were called the "resistance." When the American's rebelled against the British they were Sons of Liberty. They were patriots. They were freedom fighters.
When the Palestinians fight against an oppressive, genocidal regime they are called... terrorists. If I lived in Gaza I'd probably fight too instead of slowly waiting for death. |
It wasn't one rocket it was 6000 rockets.
Start with getting the first fact correct then maybe we can take you seriously. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| It wasn't one rocket it was 6000 rockets. |
6000 rockets and they only killed four people?!?
Over 500 Palestinians are dead. I wonder if the Israeli percentage is similar.... |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| Bucheonguy wrote: |
You're vision of what's going on is completely messed up. I don't even want to get into how wrong your facts are. I'll just present you with the plain logic and you can decide for your what you think.
60 years ago your country was taken away from you. Today, your people live in Nazi style ghettos, are being starved and mass murdered. One person fires a rocket at the people who are systematically killing your people. Maybe this rocket hits someone maybe it doesn't. The entire might of the army launches a strike that targets innocent people killing hundreds of people! Hundreds of starving, innocent people.
I personally would be a little anti Isreal too if I was in this situation.
When the French fought the Nazi's they were called the "resistance." When the American's rebelled against the British they were Sons of Liberty. They were patriots. They were freedom fighters.
When the Palestinians fight against an oppressive, genocidal regime they are called... terrorists. If I lived in Gaza I'd probably fight too instead of slowly waiting for death. |
It wasn't one rocket it was 6000 rockets.
Start with getting the first fact correct then maybe we can take you seriously. |
And how many civilians were killed by those "6000 rockets"? 
But I guess it's no good justifying their situation to you. You'll see any representative of their plight as terrorists, while you claim to support the "common Palestinian". Maybe you should get your priorities in in order before you criticize others.
Good post, Bucheonguy. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Yes 6000 attempts at killing civilians. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Bucheonguy wrote: |
| One person fires a rocket at the people who are systematically killing your people. Maybe this rocket hits someone maybe it doesn't. The entire might of the army launches a strike that targets innocent people killing hundreds of people! Hundreds of starving, innocent people. |
While I'm sure I would hate the army for launching the strike, I'd also be pretty pissed at the a-hole who fired the rocket that resulted in hundreds of my country's people being killed. I'd be even more pissed to know that he was well aware of the likely consequences of his actions.
I'm not against the Palestinians by any means, but Hamas is wacked (and now they, along with civilians, are getting wacked). A real shitty situation all around. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Hamas are far too extreme to be governing anywhere. They don't deserve to be in power but taking them out by force is going to create a lot of bloodshed. Does Israel have the fortitude to finish the job? To completely destroy Hamas I would imagine will create a death toll in the tens of thousands. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| 3. How long did you expect the Jews to endure relentless mortar and missile attacks before they retaliated? |
| Gopher wrote: |
| The Palestinians wanted to provoke an Israeli response; they wanted to provoke this specific Israeli response. They lured Tel Aviv in through these attacks because they are waging a propaganda war -- unlike Israel, who is waging a military war. |
See...?
| Quote: |
Hamas rocket fire into southern Israel prompted Israeli forces to launch a military campaign in Gaza 10 days ago, which culminated in a major ground offensive at the weekend.
"We salute the resistance men," Mahmoud al-Zahar said in a televised address from an undisclosed location in Gaza.
"They (Israeli forces) shelled everyone in Gaza ... they shelled children and hospitals and mosques and in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way," he said.
"Our demands are clear: the problem is not in the Qassam rockets. The problem is in the aggression and the troops and the siege imposed on us." |
CNN Reports |
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