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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Wow. 10 pages and multiple threads about 500 dead. I guess Jews really are news. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Thanks for setting me straight.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article394547.ece
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Thanks for setting me straight on that, Dave, because before I thought it was Israel's fault, but now that you have slapped me into shape I know that it is really the Palestinians who are to blame. Thanks for setting me on the straight and narrow. Maybe if you were around when I was a kid I wouldn'ta had all these troubles getting stuff wrong.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1937048.stm
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/218vnicq.asp
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/17/israel2
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/index-d.html
| aka Dave wrote: |
Okay, cut the crap Trevor.
Hamas is the effective ruler of Gaza. Hamas' explicit goal is the destruction of Israel, and that includes the *deliberate* extermination of civilians.
Hamas places it's rocket launching sites in civilian neighborhoods to insure that more *Palestinian* civilians are killed. Israel seeks to avoid civilian death as much as possible.
Intent matters. Hamas are murderers. Israel is defending itself. Remember: Hamas belives it is a divine imperative to exterminate the Jews.
I tell you what Trevor. If I come to your house and start shooting rockets at your family, what the heck are you gonna do? Negotiate? But I'd say "Trevor, my entire existence is devoted to wiping your family off the map", what are you going to do? Negotiate?
It's morally vacuous. Yes, the Palestinians have an awful plight. That is the plight of those who choose war, instead of peace, of fighting for land, instead of sharing it.
Ever since 1999, I have absolutely no sympathy for these people. They choose their bed, they deserve to lie in it. |
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There was no Jenin Massacre Trevor. At least according to the UN. Please get your information correct. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
THE day after the deadly Palestinian attack on Hebrew University in
| Quote: |
| Jerusalem, The Guardian, the left-leaning British newspaper, published an editorial criticizing Israel for what the paper called ''random, vengeful acts of terror'' against Palestinian civilians during its reoccupation of the West Bank town of Jenin last spring. This after a United Nations report dismissed Palestinian claims that Israel had massacred civilians there. |
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06E2D8153BF937A3575BC0A9649C8B63
| Quote: |
U.N. report: No massacre in Jenin
UNITED NATIONS (AP) � A U.N. report released Thursday found no evidence to support Palestinian claims that Israeli forces massacred up to 500 people in the Jenin refugee camp, but it criticized both sides for putting civilian lives at risk. |
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-08-01-unreport-jenin_x.htm |
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I did set you straight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks
there of couse would be no occupation if Arafat had accepted Bill Cliinton's peace plan.
Besides Israel doesn't behave worse during war than does its enemies.
Ah Trevor engaging in one sided selective criticism and pretending that it is objective analysis. |
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Jandar

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad to see that trevor is finally coming around.
Maybe other misguided souls will see the error of their ways. |
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bangbayed

Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
there of couse would be no occupation if Arafat had accepted Bill Cliinton's peace plan. |
You should get your facts straight.
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| The breakdown is often attributed to the political circumstances posed by Israeli elections and changeover in leadership in the United States: They had run out of political time. They couldn't conclude an agreement with Clinton now out of office and Barak standing for reelection in two weeks... |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit#End_of_the_negotiations |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:01 am Post subject: |
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An interesting thing happens when a person does a little online research regarding anything to do with Israel or the holocaust. Typically, the first, or one of the first search results is from Wikipedia. Click on it � consistently there is a heading that says �This article is in dispute.� Clearly there is an enormous struggle over the historical record, even on Wikipedia.
Whose disputing every possible negative word they can find on the internet about Israel? It�s obviously organized and quite methodical. I don�t know, but were you aware that the Israeli government spends a great deal writing and editing the Wiki? They have been caught several times. A computer linked to the Israeli government twice tried to delete an entire article about the West Bank wall that was critical of the policy. An edit from the same address also modified the entry for Hizbollah describing all its operations as being "mostly military in nature".
Soruces:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/wikipedia-and-the-art-of-censorship-462070.html
Here's some more information on Israeli governemnt's edits to the Wiki:
http://conflictblotter.com/2007/08/22/israels-wikipedia-editors/
why am I bringing this up?
Well, yesterday I posted several links regarding the Jenin Massacre. Almost immediately came a reply from one of the thread�s less articulate Israel supporters: �There was no massacre,� he said.
A Jenin Denier, let�s call him.
But the tactic is not without its merits. Now the onus is on me to prove whether or not there was a massacre. Unfortunately, I wasn�t there. Who was there? Israeli soldiers and Palestinians. Each calling the other a liar. Not so easy to prove anything.
Let�s take another example: former prime minister Golda Meir who, in 1969, said the Palestinians didn�t exist:
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
And
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
Denial at its finest! And it worked! Who was there to say �tain�t so Golda.�
Years later someone had to go and write a book to prove that Palestinians existed!
What strikes me about this is how Israel�s own denial seems to be overlooked so often. Ultimately someone had to go back and do the legwork to literally prove that the Palestinians existed. By that time, Golda was dead, the six day war was over, and the Issue had moved and nobody cared anymore.
Here�s a report on Jenin that I think most people will find valid enough.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article394547.ece |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
An interesting thing happens when a person does a little online research regarding anything to do with Israel or the holocaust. Typically, the first, or one of the first search results is from Wikipedia. Click on it � consistently there is a heading that says �This article is in dispute.� Clearly there is an enormous struggle over the historical record, even on Wikipedia.
Whose disputing every possible negative word they can find on the internet about Israel? It�s obviously organized and quite methodical. I don�t know, but were you aware that the Israeli government spends a great deal writing and editing the Wiki? They have been caught several times. A computer linked to the Israeli government twice tried to delete an entire article about the West Bank wall that was critical of the policy. An edit from the same address also modified the entry for Hizbollah describing all its operations as being "mostly military in nature".
Soruces:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/wikipedia-and-the-art-of-censorship-462070.html
Here's some more information on Israeli governemnt's edits to the Wiki:
http://conflictblotter.com/2007/08/22/israels-wikipedia-editors/
why am I bringing this up?
Well, yesterday I posted several links regarding the Jenin Massacre. Almost immediately came a reply from one of the thread�s less articulate Israel supporters: �There was no massacre,� he said.
A Jenin Denier, let�s call him.
But the tactic is not without its merits. Now the onus is on me to prove whether or not there was a massacre. Unfortunately, I wasn�t there. Who was there? Israeli soldiers and Palestinians. Each calling the other a liar. Not so easy to prove anything.
Let�s take another example: former prime minister Golda Meir who, in 1969, said the Palestinians didn�t exist:
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
And
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
Denial at its finest! And it worked! Who was there to say �tain�t so Golda.�
Years later someone had to go and write a book to prove that Palestinians existed!
What strikes me about this is how Israel�s own denial seems to be overlooked so often. Ultimately someone had to go back and do the legwork to literally prove that the Palestinians existed. By that time, Golda was dead, the six day war was over, and the Issue had moved and nobody cared anymore.
Here�s a report on Jenin that I think most people will find valid enough.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article394547.ece |
According to the UN there was no Jenin Massacre . You ought to take up your dispute with them. Why ought anyone accept your claim?
You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
| Quote: |
| THE day after the deadly Palestinian attack on Hebrew University in Jerusalem, The Guardian, the left-leaning British newspaper, published an editorial criticizing Israel for what the paper called ''random, vengeful acts of terror'' against Palestinian civilians during its reoccupation of the West Bank town of Jenin last spring. This after a United Nations report dismissed Palestinian claims that Israel had massacred civilians there. |
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06E2D8153BF937A3575BC0A9649C8B63
| Quote: |
U.N. report: No massacre in Jenin
UNITED NATIONS (AP) � A U.N. report released Thursday found no evidence to support Palestinian claims that Israeli forces massacred up to 500 people in the Jenin refugee camp, but it criticized both sides for putting civilian lives at risk. |
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-08-01-unreport-jenin_x.htm
| Quote: |
There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969. |
Sounds a lot like this:
| Quote: |
Trouw interview
Zuhair Mohsen is perhaps most widely known in the West for having made the following statement in a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw[1][2]:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
While this contravened the PLO charter, which affirms the existence of a Palestinian people with national rights, it was in line with al-Sa'iqa's Syrian-Baathist ideology. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen
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| Here�s a report on Jenin that I think most people will find valid enough. |
Opinion and anyway here is the context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks
I know you would rather that part of the equation be snuffed out.
Then again your business is selective one sided criticism masquerading as objective analysis. |
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