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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Ah, teenagers, 16 or older. And that article is from 2004. Might want to use the past tense.  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle, I think you are the one with ruffled feathers, and still acting like a small child who can not get another to play his game. I shall take part in any particular discussion at my leisure, and not to please you. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I agree Hamas is nothing like the French Resistance. The Resistance weren't using children as human shields nor were they strapping bombs onto the backs of mentally disabled children to go blow up the Gestapo headquarters.
THAT is the problem people have with others portraying Hamas as freedom fighters. |
Of course the French resistance weren't fighting an occupation for over 40 years nor was their resistance efforts against the Germans abandoned by the rest of the international community. |
There is no evidence that Hamas has used Palestinian children as human shields. I have not seen any credible report regarding that from any international organization. Israel's allegations are questionable.
I question Israel's allegations as much as I question Hamas's body counts of Israeli soldiers. I definitely know Hamas has killed FATAH men, but as far as going out and using Palestinians as human shields that fits the ICRC's definition of it, I haven't seen it. As part of the propaganda war, and to have some political cover for the massacres, Israel keeps using that as a dark, sinister mantra. I think we should becareful to accept that. I do know Israel has been accused of using people as human shields. I personally know people who went through that in Nablus in the West Bank. I know they wouldn't lie to me, because we are so close. |
I think Mohammedweil Baroud would disagree that women and children were not acting as human shields for his house.
Be that as it may, I noticed you completely ignored my other claim that of Hamas using children as suicide bombers. Would you like to address that? |
I don't know why that incident was such a big deal. Not only that, but I do not believe it legitimate to be targetting houses. What if Arabs were flying over Tel Aviv and firing missiles at the residences of IDF Generals or Israeli leaders. Would you still consider that legitimate?
But seeing as you are so outraged by the use of children as shields, why are you not up in arms about the IDF's regular use of children as human shields? It's common practice in Gaza right now for IDF troops to take over a residence, and not allow the terrified family to leave. That's a use of children as human shields, yet I don't hear you getting worked up about it. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Big Bird clucked:
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| ManintheMiddle, I think you are the one with ruffled feathers, and still acting like a small child who can not get another to play his game. I shall take part in any particular discussion at my leisure, and not to please you. |
Spoken like a school marm. How many excuses can you pull out of your woolknit purse? Or are you desperately searching online for information to back your responses. I'm not interested in having you please me. I'm interested in your showing some backbone. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| It doesn't matter if you're large and powerful like the United States or small and weak like Gaza, the bottom line is this: if you fire weapons into other people's lands long enough, they will eventually retaliate with little to no regard for civilian life. That's a proven fact of life in the 21st century. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
BB replied:
| Quote: |
He said that I have lost 'any claim to impartiality when it comes to any issues that involve the Jewish people.'
In other words, I have some sort of a beef with Jewish people. In other words, I am anti-semitic. That is a foul accusation |
Uh, perhaps he means that or perhaps he means it just as he said, in which case your response smacks of paranoia.
Then again, I concur: you don't seem to show much understanding or sympathy for the Israeli plight. Does that necessarily make you anti-Semitic? No, of course not. Does it show you to be prejudiced? Yes, of course. |
I have no sympathy for Israel's position when it comes to this occupation, which is just one long extended land grab. I feel sorry for individual Israelis, and felt sickened by the suicide bombings that took place a few years ago. However, I think the victims of those attrocities were as much the victims of their own government as they were victims of Palestinians, sacrificed to the continued land grab in the West Bank.. I do not believe that Israel as a nation can claim victimhood when it is they (or rather their leaders) who have chosen to continue an occupation whereby they continue to try and tighten their grip over choice West Bank real estate at the expense of finding a lasting peace with their neighbours. You can not be surprised, when you are occupying another people, when they try to rise up and violently resist.
In much the same way, I feel that the British and US government is ultimately to blame for the deaths of young Britiish and American lads, who have died fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq. The leaders who take their people into any occupation know damn well that their countrymen will pay a terrible price. When I see reports of our young lads (and sometimes lasses) killed or horribly maimed, I feel very sad. I wonder about their families and how they must feel. But I have no sympathy at all with our 'cause' in Iraq, and think the whole war was a shameful and foolish debacle.
| Quote: |
| The CE Forum is a hot kitchen to play in, which as the mod knows makes it worth viewing, unless it deteriorates into a series of temper tantrums. |
It may be a hot kitchen to play in, but the choice to 'play' should be each invididual's. No-one is compelled to 'play' with you simply because you think they should. Your continued harrassment of me from thread to thread was bizarre and uncalled for. I have never harrassed a poster demanding they come to a thread and participate. I would never think to mock a poster because they put pressing real life concerns before an unimportant message board. I called you a 'belligerent arsehole' precisely because you were behaving as one.
My opinion of you dips further and further with each post. I tried to offer you an olive branch, but you have behaved like a petulant baby.
Editted for clarity.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:33 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
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| Nice post, Adventurer. I generally find that you are one of the more informed posters on this issue. |
Translation from double-speak: since you often agree with me, I'm inclined to like respect you. |
In fact I do not always agree with Adventurer, but I recognise he is very well informed on this topic, and probably comes the closest to being 'impartial' of any regular poster here. He is very fair minded, and has a good handle on the facts.
| Man in a Muddle wrote: |
to which Big Bird chirped in:
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| Yes, I've mentioned it several times, but the 'impartial' people never engage with it. |
Oh, that's rich, lassie, coming from someone who hasn't responded to any of my posts on the subject because you know your feathers will be plucked. |
I glanced at your 10 questions within minutes of you posting them. I had no time to participate, but knew I would probably be tempted to take time away from more important things and respond within a few days. That was before you started harrassing me. Then I took the stance that I will not reward your bullying and taunting by doing what you ask of me. So, I have not even read your post since, for fear that I will be tempted to reply. Childish perhaps, but not as childish as the behaviour of a man old enough to be my dad.
| Man on a Mission wrote: |
]I hold a master's degree in international relations from a prominent university in addition to my doctorate in applied linguistics, if you want to compare credentials. I've also lived in the Middle East, as did my parents.
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You seem in shock and awe of your own brilliance, and it's nice that you've impressed at least someone.
| Memory in a Muddle wrote: |
| ]While I sympathize with having stayed awake with a cranky toddler, rather than write in an irritable mood, why not wait until later since you're always "too busy" to respond to any of my comments. |
Then why not extend the same patience, instead of harranguing me all over the show.
Steve, this is a message board. It is a leisure activity. No-one is compelled to participate more than they want/can.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
But seeing as you are so outraged by the use of children as shields, why are you not up in arms about the IDF's regular use of children as human shields? It's common practice in Gaza right now for IDF troops to take over a residence, and not allow the terrified family to leave. That's a use of children as human shields, yet I don't hear you getting worked up about it. |
Source please...from a mainstream news outlet like I provided. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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It's common practice in Gaza right now for IDF troops to take over a residence, and not allow the terrified family to leave. That's a use of children as human shields, yet I don't hear you getting worked up about it.
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After reading this one wonders if you understand the difference between a formal army with uniforms doing a house by house search to sweep and clear an area and a bunch of thugs who benefit from every civilian casualty and teach children that death in the cause of Allah is a glorious thing. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Ah, teenagers, 16 or older. And that article is from 2004. Might want to use the past tense. |
This is true... but more than 4 years on who knows how many other children have had bombs strapped to them?
As to the 16 year age? No age was given for the Hamas bombers.
And simply because some militant leaders say that they consider a 16 year old to be an adult does not necessarily imply they only use 16 year olds or older for suicide bombings.
Regardless, it's still a reprehensible practice. If the Hamas leadership believes in suicide bombing they should practice what they preach. Presumably they are all grown mature men who can make up their own mind without undue influence. But we all know that will never happen, since going by past form they much prefer to cower amid groups of civilians.
Any road up, thanks for the debate...I've long regarded you as one of the sanest posters here. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
| It doesn't matter if you're large and powerful like the United States or small and weak like Gaza, the bottom line is this: if you fire weapons into other people's lands long enough, they will eventually retaliate with little to no regard for civilian life. That's a proven fact of life in the 21st century. |
Let me correct you.
"That's a proven fact of life throughout the ages." |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| RJjr wrote: |
| It doesn't matter if you're large and powerful like the United States or small and weak like Gaza, the bottom line is this: if you fire weapons into other people's lands long enough, they will eventually retaliate with little to no regard for civilian life. That's a proven fact of life in the 21st century. |
Let me correct you.
"That's a proven fact of life throughout the ages." |
Agreed. Getting back to the Israeli-Gaza situation in particular, I for one find it hard to accept the arguments that Israel should not retaliate/retaliate in proportion/should not blockade/should only blockade weapons...et cetera.
As I pointed out the West Bank is doing MUCH better. I already posted a link and there are plenty of others (if anyone doesn't like that one) on Google. This is indisputable. This is what happens when you stop firing rockets and work towards a peace with Israel. Eventually Israel is going to realize that they are serious about peace and then maybe the moderate groups will have a chance to speak out/come to power. But as long as the rockets keep falling, only the hardline groups will be taken seriously. And Hamas knows this, so why doesn't it stop its rockets? Because Hamas doesn't want peace. Peace runs counter to its REASON FOR EXISTENCE. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
But seeing as you are so outraged by the use of children as shields, why are you not up in arms about the IDF's regular use of children as human shields? It's common practice in Gaza right now for IDF troops to take over a residence, and not allow the terrified family to leave. That's a use of children as human shields, yet I don't hear you getting worked up about it. |
Source please...from a mainstream news outlet like I provided. |
Many mainstream news outlets have carried this story, but I'll take the press release from Amnesty International
| Quote: |
Amnesty International said today that both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian fighters are endangering the lives of Palestinian civilians � including by using them as human shields.
�Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniperf position,� said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International�s Middle East and North Africa Programme. �This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned and means they are effectively being used as human shields.� |
If you go on to read the full report you will also find this:
| Quote: |
Israeli forces have bombed civilian homes and other buildings, arguing that they had been used as cover by gunmen firing at Israeli targets, although Palestinian fighters usually vacate the areas as soon as they have fired.
�The Israeli army is well-aware that Palestinian gunmen usually leave the area after having fired and that any reprisal attack against these homes will in most cases cause harm to civilians -- not gunmen.� |
So according to this, the IDF has been deliberately killing civillians knowing full well that gunmen they claim to be targetting have long since left the scene. And sadly in fact there are many eye-witness reports coming out suggesting this unsavory practice has been happening regularly in the past few days. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
| Quote: |
It's common practice in Gaza right now for IDF troops to take over a residence, and not allow the terrified family to leave. That's a use of children as human shields, yet I don't hear you getting worked up about it.
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After reading this one wonders if you understand the difference between a formal army with uniforms doing a house by house search to sweep and clear an area and a bunch of thugs who benefit from every civilian casualty and teach children that death in the cause of Allah is a glorious thing. |
As usual you come here to indulge in your little fixation with me, rather than to properly contribute to the topic and express your views.
No. You need to wonder that very same about Amnesty International, as well as others. Let's spell this out for you again: The IDF have been taking up positions in houses and imprisoning the civillian occupants (including children) in the houses with them, in order to use the families as human shields.
Also there have been many reports of the IDF rounding up civillian men, blindfolding them, and keeping them nearby as a form of human shield. Remember recently the bombing of the house that killed 30 people? Remember how the IDF refused to let the red cross and other rescue workers reach the wounded for 4 days? Well, that's one example of that happening. Many of the survivors who eventually made it out reported the IDF coming and taking away the traumatised and - in some cases - wounded non-combatant civillian men, blindfolding them and taking them away.
It's understood that these men are then used as a kind of buffer.
I know I know. You don't want to believe any of these reports, so you wont, and of course Amnesty International are big liars. Not until you see them on Fox News, though of course if hell did actually freeze over, Fox News would suddenly conveniently become a lefty pro-Palestinian mouth piece for the nuttiest of nutters. I know.
The IDF's use of Arabs as human shields has a very long and shameful history. It just goes to show the particular state of 'impartiality' of some of the posters here that only Hamas' use (and alleged use) of them is ever mentioned.
Anyway, more from Amnesty International (same link):
| Quote: |
In the past, Israeli soldiers have frequently taken over Palestinian homes, effectively imprisoning their occupants, to use as military observation and firing positions. In other cases, they have forced Palestinian civilians, at gunpoint, to go before them into buildings from which they feared attack.
The practice by Israeli soldiers of taking over Palestinian civilians� homes and holding their inhabitants as human shields while using the house as a shooting position has been very common in the past eight years both in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank. In a previous incursion in the Gaza Strip in March 2008, Israeli soldiers took over at least three houses in the north and in February 2008 soldiers took over another house in the village of Beit Ummar, near Hebron, in the West Bank.
Palestinian families caught up in the current fighting in the Gaza Strip report that in some cases Palestinian gunmen have agreed to vacate areas near civilian homes without firing at Israeli forces when local residents have objected to their presence. In other cases, they have refused the residents' requests and only left after firing. In still other cases, residents say they were too scared to ask the gunmen to leave.
The use of "human shields" is prohibited under Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention which states, "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." Israel has ratified the Convention which is also recognized as reflecting customary international law and therefore binding on Israel, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups. In an accompanying commentary, the ICRC defined the scope of the provision: "The prohibition is expressed in an absolute form and applies to the belligerents' own territory as well as to occupied territory, to small sites as well as to wide areas." The prohibition against the use of human shields is further clarified in Article 51(7) of the Additional Protocol 1 to the Geneva Conventions and reflects customary international law. It states, "Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations." |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
But seeing as you are so outraged by the use of children as shields, why are you not up in arms about the IDF's regular use of children as human shields? It's common practice in Gaza right now for IDF troops to take over a residence, and not allow the terrified family to leave. That's a use of children as human shields, yet I don't hear you getting worked up about it. |
Source please...from a mainstream news outlet like I provided. |
Many mainstream news outlets have carried this story, but I'll take the press release from Amnesty International
| Quote: |
Amnesty International said today that both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian fighters are endangering the lives of Palestinian civilians � including by using them as human shields.
�Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniperf position,� said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International�s Middle East and North Africa Programme. �This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned and means they are effectively being used as human shields.� |
If you go on to read the full report you will also find this:
| Quote: |
Israeli forces have bombed civilian homes and other buildings, arguing that they had been used as cover by gunmen firing at Israeli targets, although Palestinian fighters usually vacate the areas as soon as they have fired.
�The Israeli army is well-aware that Palestinian gunmen usually leave the area after having fired and that any reprisal attack against these homes will in most cases cause harm to civilians -- not gunmen.� |
So according to this, the IDF has been deliberately killing civillians knowing full well that gunmen they claim to be targetting have long since left the scene. And sadly in fact there are many eye-witness reports coming out suggesting this unsavory practice has been happening regularly in the past few days. |
AI doesn't cut it with me. TIME, The Economist, BBC, Newsweek...all these are reputable news organizations with more or less reliable fact-checkers. Many governments and companies have criticized AI for selection bias and ideological bias. The U.S, South Korea, and Israel are just three of the many. Also companies like Total have also pointed this out. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.
Furthermore this press release is not backed up by any cited source or other evidence. This would not constitute proof in a court of law in the Western world and doesn't here either. |
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