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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: |
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The best D team won 6 out of 9. Defeat admitted.
Is there a reason why you think defenses win championships? I'm much more interested in that. Do you think there is relationship between being good on O and being good on D and vice versa? Or a relationship between a certain type of O and being good on D or vice versa?
Do you think 'defense wins championships' applies to other sports? What about NFL? What do you think of the statistical article posted above that purports to show that great offenses tend to beat great defenses in the nfl?
I already have conversations like this on various 'intelligent' football sites and blogs..I'd like to do the same here. But if you don't want to, that be cool.
Last edited by JMO on Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Wow, this is still being discussed?
Well, lets put it this way.
The only other cmpetition that the SEC has is the Big 12. Like it or not, the Big 12 is pretty good.
Some in the Big 12 are pretenders (like the SEC) but Texas is a genuine contender...............like it or not.
Mac Brown has built a great program there.....like it or not.
dmbfan |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
The only other cmpetition that the SEC has is the Big 12. Like it or not, the Big 12 is pretty good.
Some in the Big 12 are pretenders (like the SEC) but Texas is a genuine contender...............like it or not.
Mac Brown has built a great program there.....like it or not.
dmbfan |
See this is what I'm talking about. Does sports conversation really have to be like this?
All he basically says in this is, 'I like Texas so therefore they are great'. I don't know if they are genuine or not.
I'd assume that Texas is always a genuine contender or at least most years. I'm not sure what the point is.
I have some questions about Texas that you might have insight into. Do you think Texas Tech will be a recruiting power in Texas?
How big a pull does LSU have in the state? I see they pulled a few of the top texas kids this year..
I always thought LSU geographically is sneakily positioned well for recruiting purposes..Louisiana and miss produce big time talent and the most nfl players per capita and they are right next door to east texas..seems like if they could get their hooks into texas, oklahoma style then it might get interesting.. |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
The best D team won 6 out of 9. Defeat admitted.
You are being pedantic. I'm not sure why I expected some actual conversation about the intricacies of the game from you, this is dave's. |
First, what you call pedantic, I call a specific refutation of a statement that YOU made.
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| I've never heard defense wins championships applied to the mythical college football championship before. It doesn't really ring true either. |
It took me four posts of things that I knew to be true to get you to admit that the statement of yours that I originally objected to was erroneous.
Second, it is premature to discuss the nature of why dominant defenses win championships without getting both parties to agree to the premise, which you have only just done. So don't blame me for not furthering the discussion, because from where I'm sitting, the only roadblock has been you. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:34 am Post subject: |
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delete..
Last edited by JMO on Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:59 am; edited 4 times in total |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: |
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And, In an attempt not be roadblock.
I agree to your premise in principle.
I have a few questions.
Could you clarify exactly what you mean by 'defense wins championships'?
Could you also demonstrate how you separate the quality of the defense from the offense and special teams?
Could you demonstrate how you statistically take into account strength of schedule when grading teams on offense and defense?
Could you talk about why in your opinion defense wins championships?
I do have a personal opinion on this, namely that defense and offense are equally important and what great offenses do is not always reflected in offensive stats. At least total offensive stats.
In other words you do not win championships without the ability to put together lengthy clock killing drives. You do not win championships without the ability to stop the other team on third and short. So I guess I believe that you need to have great run offense efficiency in short yardage and good run D to win championships. I am not certain of that though, and would like to hear your thoughts on it. |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| I don't believe defenses win championships no more than I believe offenses win championships. It is unprovable imo as it is impossible to separate offenses from defenses in any real way. BUT it is possible that I am wrong. |
You are free to believe what you want. The numbers don't lie.
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| I wished to further the conversation and get beyond the stats that you refused to cite. The only way to do that seems to be to agree to your premise. |
Bullshit. You did not agree to that premise until I painstakingly copied and pasted the stats of the last 8 years of BCS championship games.
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| Why is it premature to discuss why something might be without agreeing to the premise? I'm perfectly capable of holding both thoughts in my head at the same time. |
The whole discussion, up to the point of me proving it beyond a shadow of a doubt, was whether the premis was valid. Moving beyond that into the ramifications of said premise without establishing that it is true is premature. Apparently you require ridiculous examples of why this is true, so allow me to humor you.
Thunndarr: Oxygen is required by humans to breathe.
JMO: I've never believed that oxygen is required by humans.
Thunndarr: /quotes all kinds of stats that prove what he already knows.
JMO: Why are you being so pedantic? I just wanted to discuss the ramifications of oxygen vis a vis life for humans.
Retarded.
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| You ignored my attempt to clarify what you actually meant and you ignored two articles that I cited that back my position, at least as regards the NFL. Most of all, you do not have an open mind. |
Let's see. You specifically said you had never heard the axiom defense wins championships AS APPLIED TO COLLEGE FOOTBALL and then you bring examples FROM THE NFL? Yes, nice work.
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| how do you know this to be true? I have a statistical study which says that offenses are more important in the NFL. I still don't know it to be true. There may be something that that study is missing or that I am not seeing. That is just arrogance. |
College football =! NFL football.
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| Do you really think that because the majority of the last 9 championship game winner were higher ranked defensively, that therefore defense wins championships? |
First, you seem unable to distinguish the meaning of the phrase "defense wins championships" which is my claim to what you seem to assume "the higher ranked defense will win."
Check the stats. Look at the number of teams with high ranked defenses in the BCS title game vs. the number of teams with high ranked offenses. See how the high ranked offenses faired against high ranked defenses. Come to a conclusion.
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| Is that the entirety of your argument? |
Yep, pretty much. I've established my case quite well, which is a lot more than you seem to have done. (You do a creditable job of getting huffy when things don't seem to be going your way.) Here's a hint: I never actually get into a discussion unless I am dead certain of my facts. In this case, I knew going in what the numbers were, and you clearly did not. I suggest you adopt this strategy in the future. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Thunndarr +1 |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Your evidence is a sample size of 9 games.
I don't think the stats tell the full story although they are compelling.
Is it possible in your opinion that the offensive capabilities needed to win championship games isn't reflected in total offense rankings? Therefore teams with championship offenses are under rated by total offense. What do you think of that idea?
edit: i hope you see this edit before u reply..if not i apologise for calling u a tw*t...i don't want to make this petty.
Last edited by JMO on Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:26 am; edited 4 times in total |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Thunndarr +1 |
The guy who doesn't follow sports, but you do follow internet arguments on them. Which you furthermore do not understand. Good for you. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Thunndarr +1 |
The guy who doesn't follow sports, but you do follow internet arguments on them. Which you furthermore do not understand. Good for you. |
I enjoyed the style of argumentation. I don't think I've ever watched a football game from start to end. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Thunndarr +1 |
The guy who doesn't follow sports, but you do follow internet arguments on them. Which you furthermore do not understand. Good for you. |
I enjoyed the style of argumentation. I don't think I've ever watched a football game from start to end. |
Oh, ok. Fair enough. do you think I have a point or am I way off. It do tend to get into theory too much and his stats are compelling, even if i think the sample size is small/stats don't tell the full story. |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
Your evidence is a sample size of 9 games.
I don't think the stats tell the full story although they are compelling.
edit: i hope you see this edit before u reply..if not i apologise for calling u a *beep*...i don't want to make this petty. |
Too late. Saw and read. Nice work. Doesn't matter, I realize the sample size is only 9 games...but in those nine games the stats are overwhelming. I don't really care if you agree or not, that's trivial at this point. The point is that I've supported my position much more strongly than you've supported yours. And yes, college football and NFL football are different games. When's the last time you saw a triple option offense in the NFL? When is the last time you saw an NFL team average 250+ yards rushing for a season? |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Thunndarr wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
Your evidence is a sample size of 9 games.
I don't think the stats tell the full story although they are compelling.
edit: i hope you see this edit before u reply..if not i apologise for calling u a *beep*...i don't want to make this petty. |
Too late. Saw and read. Nice work. |
Too late for what. Jesus Christ..don't be touchy..not many people want to talk about this stuff. I added a queston above. Have a look and tell me what you think.
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| Is it possible in your opinion that the offensive capabilities needed to win championship games isn't reflected in total offense rankings? Therefore teams with championship offenses are under rated by total offense. What do you think of that idea? |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Thunndarr wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
Your evidence is a sample size of 9 games.
I don't think the stats tell the full story although they are compelling.
edit: i hope you see this edit before u reply..if not i apologise for calling u a *beep*...i don't want to make this petty. |
Too late. Saw and read. Nice work. Doesn't matter, I realize the sample size is only 9 games...but in those nine games the stats are overwhelming. I don't really care if you agree or not, that's trivial at this point. The point is that I've supported my position much more strongly than you've supported yours. And yes, college football and NFL football are different games. When's the last time you saw a triple option offense in the NFL? When is the last time you saw an NFL team average 250+ yards rushing for a season? |
That is true. Your evidence is much more compelling that mine. All I have is a theory.
I'm going to have a look at 3rd down rushing offense and rushing D and see if my theory holds any water. Even if it doesn't, it will be interesting to find out.
Who is your team? |
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