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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Gitmo was probably better than most prisons in the middle east.
It certainly wasn't a gulag.
http://www.gitmocookbook.com/
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The Guantanamo Thirteen
Packing on the pounds at America's toughest prison.
By Manny Howard
Posted Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 2:52 PM ET
Is America the only country in the world that could run a prison camp where prisoners gain weight? Between April 2002 and March 2003, the Joint Task Force returned to Afghanistan 19 of the approximately 664 men (from 42 countries) who have been held in the detention camps at the U.S. Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay. Upon leaving, it has been reported, each man received two parting gifts: a brand new copy of the Koran as well as a new pair of jeans. Not the act of generosity that it might first appear, the jeans, at least, turned out to be a necessity. During their stay (14-months on average), the detainees (nearly all of them) had gained an average of 13 pou |
http://www.slate.com/id/2083612/ |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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These represent our only two alternatives when interpreting Guant�namo Bay? No thank you.
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| ...Gitmo was a gulag. |
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| Gitmo was just a wonderful holiday camp, with the inmates living in 5 star accom[m]odation. American soldiers waiting on them hand and foot. One big love in. |
And incidentally, unless any of you are United States Marines and were stationed there, you do not have the right to call it "'Gitmo."
In any case, for what it is worth, I have always found AI generally reliable -- although it certainly has its politics and crosses lines from time to time. Like all other information sources and analyses, we ought to take its information on a case-by-case basis, then. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
dude, dershowitz? DERSHOWITZ? TUM, come on. Honestly. DERSHOWITZ.
What's next? A piece by Nettanyahu? |
Whether or not you like the source, he provides DIRECT QUOTES from AI and HRW that show an anti-Israeli bias.
If Vladimir Putin were to say "The sun sets in the west" would you claim that since the source is shaky we should disregard it?
Honestly.
I've never understood those, who because they don't like the source or regard said source as invalid for some reason, dismiss the entire thing.
If on the one hand you can prove that AI and HRW said no such quotes, then that would be a valid objection to the Dershowitz article. Saying that he is a bad source (for whatever reason) is not a valid objection because what he is saying might well be true. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| For this invasion to have been worth it Israel now needs to stay there long enough to really break Hamas' hold on power and allow Fatah a chance to take over. There will never be any chance for peace as long as Hamas is in power. Even the most ardent Palestinian sympathizers should realize this. If Israel leaves and Hamas is still in control it really will have been a waste of civilian lives. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
| If Israel leaves and Hamas is still in control it really will have been a waste of civilian lives. |
Maybe. Maybe not.
For Israel to "win" it would need to effect a Final Solution in Gaza -- and I doubt it would ever do that or that anyone would tolerate it, either.
Therefore, we will live in perpetual stalemate and see this pattern recur and recur and recur... |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| If Israel leaves and Hamas is still in control it really will have been a waste of civilian lives. |
Maybe. Maybe not.
For Israel to "win" it would need to effect a Final Solution in Gaza -- and I doubt it would ever do that or that anyone would tolerate it, either.
Therefore, we will live in perpetual stalemate and see this pattern recur and recur and recur... |
We don't have to live in perpetual stalemate. It's not inevitable. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
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| No, you don't get it. But Ben Mocha (an Israeli reservist) gets it: |
Anyone can gather anecdotal evidence for a point of view, but it doesn't entitle one to extrapolate to an entire group, such as the IDF, from that. And if anything, your enumeration only goes to show that dissent and concern and an abiding sense of decency exists within the Israeli ranks and is also permitted.
Where are similar concerns expressed in the press by Hamas fighters? Oh, I forgot, they'd loose their heads even if they did.
Hell, even Al-Jazeera has found civic groups within Israel--including one of the border settlements--who lament the loss of civilian life in Gaza.
But, shucks, no such luck reporting on similar groups of Palestinian citizens by this network. |
[/quote]
I wonder how frustrated these people feel, when they know that there are people like you using their own objections to further justify all that they are objecting to. As in: hey there are Israelis who care about Palestinians, therefore it's somehow fine for the IDF to slaughter hundreds of innocents! What f***ed up logic.
Lastly, Gazans don't have the same luxury of forming human rights groups their wealthier neighbours in Israel - their children are suffering from malnutrition and their society and economy has barely been functioning since the dreadful embargo came into place. They've just been through a bloody war, and you want them to be forming little peace initiatives. You haven't got a clue. Yet still, there are Palestinians who have and continue to join groups made up of both Israelis and Palestinians trying to come to terms with each other.
This link lists a few peace groups, which include groups of Palestinians and Israelis who have come together:
http://www.pcusa.org/worldwide/israelpalestine/resources/15peacegroups.pdf
Here is one I read from time to time: The Villages Group. They don't have a very well set out website, but it's worth the read.
There are good Palestinians too, Steve. They are not all hate-filled and wicked. They don't all deserve to be blown to pieces, or watch their poor beloved children bleed to death of horrible wounds. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
dude, dershowitz? DERSHOWITZ? TUM, come on. Honestly. DERSHOWITZ.
What's next? A piece by Nettanyahu? |
Whether or not you like the source, he provides DIRECT QUOTES from AI and HRW that show an anti-Israeli bias.
If Vladimir Putin were to say "The sun sets in the west" would you claim that since the source is shaky we should disregard it?
Honestly.
I've never understood those, who because they don't like the source or regard said source as invalid for some reason, dismiss the entire thing.
If on the one hand you can prove that AI and HRW said no such quotes, then that would be a valid objection to the Dershowitz article. Saying that he is a bad source (for whatever reason) is not a valid objection because what he is saying might well be true. |
the quotes could be taken out of context. He doesn't provide a reference to what he's quoting, other than to say it is from AI. I read the article. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| If Israel leaves and Hamas is still in control it really will have been a waste of civilian lives. |
Maybe. Maybe not.
For Israel to "win" it would need to effect a Final Solution in Gaza -- and I doubt it would ever do that or that anyone would tolerate it, either.
Therefore, we will live in perpetual stalemate and see this pattern recur and recur and recur... |
That seems defeatist. Modern-day Fatah under Abbas are much more reasonable than Hamas. It would be far more difficult for the Israeli right to resist international pressure and pressure from the Israeli left to agree to a settlement if Fatah were in power in Gaza. I know that Hamas were supposedly democratically elected but I imagine there was a lot of intimidation and Iranian financial backing. The best outcome of this conflict would be if Hamas were weakened enough that Fatah could somehow regain power.
The international community should really throw their support behind Fatah as much as possible. IMO it's the only chance for a real peace settlement. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
I know that Hamas were supposedly democratically elected but I imagine there was a lot of intimidation and Iranian financial backing. The best outcome of this conflict would be if Hamas were weakened enough that Fatah could somehow regain power.
The international community should really throw their support behind Fatah as much as possible. IMO it's the only chance for a real peace settlement. |
Hamas also won because Fatah and the PA was corrupt and incompetent.
The IC has tried to support Fatah. Some in the community even provided weaponry to Fatah when it fought Hamas in Gaza a little while ago.
It really is about as hopeless a situation as one can be. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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In this situation I think Corruption is synonymous with compromise.
If you compromise with Israel you are seen as corrupt.
If you use aid money to purchase weapons you are seen as just. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
In this situation I think Corruption is synonymous with compromise.
If you compromise with Israel you are seen as corrupt.
If you use aid money to purchase weapons you are seen as just. |
what?? Jandar, no. That is a completely ignorant statement. Fatah would certainly would approve of that interpretation though. 
Corrupt is when you see your leaders get tons of money and spend it on mercedes and fancy houses while the people continue to live in poverty and get their asses kicked by those same leaders' goons and the foreign entity that's been in your area for the past 40 years. |
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