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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Despite my degree probably not increasing the income I will earn over the course of my life, I still wouldn't sell it back to the University for twice what I payed for it. I got more experience in that 4 years than I would have got in some crummy entry level office job. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| The problem is, of course, you don't know that. |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: |
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I don't see what this actually proves. Yes, college is more expensive than it should be in the US, but it's definitely worth going. Going to an Ivy league school for your bachelor's degree isn't the brightest idea unless you have a means of paying for it, but for grad school, depending on your field, it's worth it. The only real lesson from this article is to make intelligent decisions when getting loans. I went to a State school, and after three years of Korea, I'm about 5 months away from paying off my loans.
Also, it sounds like both of the people in the article took out some pretty shady loans. A decent loan only charges interest on the principle, and it would seem pretty possible to pay out those loans if this were the case.
The article says that their combined debt was 194,000 when they left college with an interest of 12%. It also says they are making 6 figure incomes. So this means they are making at least 200,000 a year. 12% of 194,000 is 23,280. If they paid their interest plus 23,280 a year, they'd be paying 46,560. If they continued to pay this rate for 8 years, they'd pay off their loans completely. This means that if they're making 200,000 per year, and paying 46,560 per year, their total income would be 153,540.
This doesn't sound too rough.
Additionally, the article claims that higher education is a scam because the costs keep rising and they use statistics to say that the average college graduate makes 1M more than the average college student and is using a correlation fallacy to lure students.
This argument has some problems. The first is that the correlation is related to causality in this case. Yes, smarter people tend to go to college, and smarter people tend to make more money. However, other than starting your own business, being a sports star or entertainer, can you think of any job which pays more than one which requires higher education? Can you be a doctor or lawyer without going to college?
I would also be interested in seeing the rates of federal funding in comparison to the tuition increases. This is a guess, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I would venture to say that federal funding for higher education during the Bush years wasn't as high as it was during previous administrations.
Last edited by greedy_bones on Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| The problem is, of course, you don't know that. |
Sure, I don't really intend working for other people my whole life though. So the end result for me maybe won't be tat different. Who knows.
You have to feel sorry for those with big loans. I'm from pinko, leftist New Zealand, so after subsidies, my degree probably cost less than 20K US all up. Plus there is no interest on your loan while you study, and if you stay in the country after you graduate. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| greedy_bones wrote: |
| I don't see what this actually proves. Yes, college is more expensive than it should be in the US, but it's definitely worth going. Going to an Ivy league school for your bachelor's degree isn't the brightest idea unless you have a means of paying for it, but for grad school, depending on your field, it's worth it. The only real lesson from this article is to make intelligent decisions when getting loans. I went to a State school, and after three years of Korea, I'm about 5 months away from paying off my loans. |
Congrats, but its anecdotal.
| Quote: |
| The article says that their combined debt was 194,000 when they left college with an interest of 12%. It also says they are making 6 figure incomes. So this means they are making at least 200,000 a year. 12% of 194,000 is 23,280. If they paid their interest plus 23,280 a year, they'd be paying 46,560. If they continued to pay this rate for 8 years, they'd pay off their loans completely. This means that if they're making 200,000 per year, and paying 46,560 per year, their total income would be 153,540. |
Again, this is only an anecdote. But reread the article. It said since they graduated in '95 and had only taken $21 000 off their loans. I don't know what their money situation is like.
| Quote: |
| This argument has some problems. The first is that the correlation is related to causality in this case. Yes, smarter people tend to go to college, and smarter people tend to make more money. However, other than starting your own business, being a sports star or entertainer, can you think of any job which pays more than one which requires higher education? Can you be a doctor or lawyer without going to college? |
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/12/six-figure-degree-jobs-lead-cx_kk_0112nodegree.html?partner=popstories
For example.
The article mentions that the average college grad will not recoup college expenses until the age of 33, and that does not include wages lost in 4 years of not working.
The high, high prices on professional degrees (law, medicine, MBA) are ridiculous. And I bet they are a contributing factor to the current mortgage crisis and to other corporate scandals like Enron.
The money quote from the article.
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| The two disillusioned attorneys were victims of an unfolding education hoax on the middle class that's just as insidious, and nearly as sweeping, as the housing debacle. The ingredients are strikingly similar, too: Misguided easy-money policies that are encouraging the masses to go into debt; a self-serving establishment trading in half-truths that exaggerate the value of its product; plus a Wall Street money machine dabbling in outright fraud as it foists unaffordable debt on the most vulnerable marks. |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
Congrats, but its anecdotal. |
As is the majority of the article.
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| Again, this is only an anecdote. But reread the article. It said since they graduated in '95 and had only taken $21 000 off their loans. I don't know what their money situation is like. |
The article says they both have six figure incomes. That's where I got the minimum of $200,000 per year. There's something incredibly odd going on if they only paid $21,000 over 13 years when they both make at least $100,000.
Half of the jobs listed require extensive overtime in order to make more than $100,000. Is it really anyone's dream to be working 60-80 hours a week? Additionally, some of those jobs mostly require education but will allow for work experience. Who would you hire, someone who has two years experience or someone who has a degree in the field and two years experience? Other positions require slowly working up a ladder, like police supervisor.
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
The article mentions that the average college grad will not recoup college expenses until the age of 33, and that does not include wages lost in 4 years of not working. |
Does this take into account people who started college when they were older than 18? Does this take into account those who went to graduate school?
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| The high, high prices on professional degrees (law, medicine, MBA) are ridiculous. |
agreed.
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| And I bet they are a contributing factor to the current mortgage crisis and to other corporate scandals like Enron. |
Yes, they are most likely a factor in the mortgage crisis as are any other forms of debt. What on earth do high tuition rates have to do with selling nothing and defrauding investors?
The money quote from the article.
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The two disillusioned attorneys were victims of an unfolding education hoax on the middle class that's just as insidious, and nearly as sweeping, as the housing debacle. The ingredients are strikingly similar, too: Misguided easy-money policies that are encouraging the masses to go into debt; a self-serving establishment trading in half-truths that exaggerate the value of its product; plus a Wall Street money machine dabbling in outright fraud as it foists unaffordable debt on the most vulnerable marks. |
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Half of this is true. They took out ridiculous loans which they, for reasons not covered in the article, were unable to pay. As for the big evil universities lying about the use of a degree, I find this laughable.
The article also neglects to mention another important factor. Yes, people see college as an investment, but that isn't all. Many people want jobs in fields they find interesting. Many of these jobs require a degree. Do you want to be a teacher? You have to go to school. Do you want to be a doctor? You have to go to school.
Not only do people go to school because they want to work in a particular field, but they also go because they want to learn. Yes, you can learn a lot on the job, but you can also learn in school. And as another poster mentioned, going to college is a good experience that you can't get from working in a cubicle straight out of high school. How do I know this? I've done both. In college, you live with a group of strangers from completely different backgrounds and have to figure out how to get along with. You meet professors who spend their lives researching specific topics. You learn how to support yourself on a very fixed income.
Yes, the cost of higher education is much higher than it should be, but it's definitely worth it.
One more anecdote, while I'm at it. I have three friends from high school who are computer geeks. Two went to college, received bachelors in programming and now make over $60,000 per year(one just started, the other one has been working for a little over a year). The other one started working as a programmer straight out of college and made 35,000 per year after working at the same place for 8 years. He was laid off this year and hasn't received any offers for more than $30,000. Yes, this is only anecdotal, but the fact of the matter is that education is a factor in your pay. Many jobs will hire people without a degree, but they will also give you a lower salary. |
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