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movybuf
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Location: Mokdong
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 Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: Conspiracy Theorists |
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I just finished watching some documentary called "The Illuminati" and it really got me thinking - Who really believes this stuff!?
Is there anybody here who buys into some of the conspiracy theory stuff.
Like the Illuminati, 9/11 stuff, the JFK assassination etc...
Discuss..... |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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why are you asking us?
who are you really with and what are you really trying to do? |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I find it incredibly ironic that bureaucratic ineptitude is often interpreted as conspiracy when it's far easier to believe that inconsistencies in official reports are far more likely the result of stupidity than any kind of grand conspiracy. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Check out the 9/11 thread. Lots of nutsos. |
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pentheus
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:26 am Post subject: |
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Hey,
lets all agree with each other to make ourselves feel good and smart.
Aaaahhhhhhhh, thats better. |
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Missihippi
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Location: Gwangmyeong
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| We've never landed on the moon. |
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Tud Ferguson
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Naw no such thing, powerful people would never conspire to hold on to or increase their power, everything happens by accident. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:43 am Post subject: |
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Roswell! |
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roknroll
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| I find it incredibly ironic that bureaucratic ineptitude is often interpreted as conspiracy when it's far easier to believe that inconsistencies in official reports are far more likely the result of stupidity than any kind of grand conspiracy. |
Agreed that the peeps who live for their theories go overboard all too often. However, the mafia, watergate, iran-contra are former conspiracy theories that have proved to be true.
http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/07/02/28/the_9_most_shocking_conspiracy_theories_that_turned_out_to_be_true.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
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| Some theorists like Charles Pigden argue that the reality of such conspiracies should caution against any casual dismissal of conspiracy theory. Pigden, in his article Conspiracy Theories and the Conventional Wisdom [4] argues that not only do conspiracies occur but that any educated member of society will believe in at least one of them; we are all, in fact, Conspiracy Theorists. Authors and publishers, such as Robert Anton Wilson and Disinfo, use proven conspiracies as evidence of what a secret plot can accomplish. In doing so, they demonstrate that the label "conspiracy theory" does not necessarily indicate that a theory is false. Theories cited in making this case include those listed above as well as: |
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regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Check out the 9/11 thread. Lots of nutsos. |
Here is someone who would agree with you MM2:
The Trouble with Conspiracy Theories, An essay by Edward Feser
People who think the U.S. government was complicit in 9/11 or in the JFK assassination sometimes complain that those who dismiss them as �conspiracy theorists� are guilty of inconsistency. For don�t the defenders of the �official story� behind 9/11 themselves believe in a conspiracy, namely one masterminded by Osama bin Laden? Don�t they acknowledge the existence of conspiracies like Watergate, as well as everyday garden variety criminal conspiracies?
The objection is superficial. Critics of the best known �conspiracy theories� don�t deny the possibility of conspiracies per se. Rather they deny the possibility, or at least the plausibility, of conspiracies of the scale of those posited by 9/11 and JFK assassination skeptics. One reason for this has to do with considerations about the nature of modern bureaucracies, especially governmental ones. They are notoriously sclerotic and risk-averse, structurally incapable of implementing any decision without reams of paperwork and committee oversight, and dominated by ass-covering careerists concerned above all with job security. The personnel who comprise them largely preexist and outlast the particular administrations that are voted in and out every few years, and have interests and attitudes that often conflict with those of the politicians they temporarily serve. Like the rest of society, they are staffed by individuals with wildly divergent worldviews that are difficult to harmonize. The lack of market incentives and the power of public employee unions make them extremely inefficient. And so forth. All of this makes the chances of organizing diverse reaches of the bureaucracy (just the right set of people spread across the Army, the Air Force, the FBI, the CIA, the FAA, etc. � not to mention within private firms having their own bureaucracies and diversity of corporate and individual interests) in a short period of time (e.g. the months between Bush�s inauguration and 9/11) to carry out a plot and cover-up of such staggering complexity, close to nil.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=52658159988a075325e985eb7e1d9ba6&showtopic=14060&st=0&start=0
But another poster writes:
The trouble with this guy's thinking is that it is the same as Chomsky, Ken Rhan or Jim Fester's thinking, both of whom advocate critical thinking yet get tangled up in their own thoughts, and end up with nonsense.
The problem is that both the JFK assassination and 9/11 were conspiracies, and the 80% of the people who understand the JFK assassination was one, do not all fall into those neat categories for easy dismissal.
The problem with liberal democracies like the USA is they have allowed political assassinations to occur without proper law enforcement and judicial response, and now that hole must be properly addressed and plugged in order to prevent them from happening again.
All of the philosophical meanderings will not cover up the fact that the threat of political assassination is the most significant national security challenge today, primarily because the assassination of President Kennedy has been allowed to go unresolved, in part due to that kind of thinking.
And its not the fault of conspiracy theorists.
Bill Kelly |
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Jeff's Cigarettes
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| It's funny how gullible some people can be. There's even people here that thinks 9/11 was planned by "w" and the CIA....just hilarious! They're sometimes referred to as moonbats. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Tud Ferguson wrote: |
| Naw no such thing, powerful people would never conspire to hold on to or increase their power, everything happens by accident. |
This is a good example of how conspiracy theorists don't believe ANYTHING happens by accident. Every event can be explained, quite often by bringing in another layer of conspiracy. |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeff's Cigarettes wrote: |
| It's funny how gullible some people can be. There's even people here that thinks 9/11 was planned by "w" and the CIA....just hilarious! They're sometimes referred to as moonbats. |
Get with the program.
W couldn't organize his own medicine cabinet, much less something larger.
Why would CIA be involved?
It was Dick Cheney and the FBI!
*sheesh* |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| There's 27 pages on the JFK assassination sticky over on the Current Events forum. |
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roknroll
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Tud Ferguson wrote: |
| Naw no such thing, powerful people would never conspire to hold on to or increase their power, everything happens by accident. |
This is a good example of how conspiracy theorists don't believe ANYTHING happens by accident. Every event can be explained, quite often by bringing in another layer of conspiracy. |
It would be helpful if you qualify or define what you mean by conspiracy theorists when you claim they ALL are this way. At face value, it appears you're on the opposite extreme where EVERYTHING happens by accident. I didn't read the 911 thread (although i can imagine the viewpoints) so this doesn't relate to the content on that thread.
Clearly, powerful interests look after themselves. For example, Scooter Libby(wiki):
| Quote: |
Irve Lewis "Scooter" Libby (born August 22, 1950) is a former Assistant to the former President of the United States, George W. Bush and Chief of Staff to the former Vice President, Dick Cheney, and Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs, serving from 2001 to 2005.[1][2][3]
Libby resigned all three government positions immediately after he was indicted on federal charges of obstruction and perjury resulting from the grand jury investigation into the leak of the covert identity of Central Intelligence Agency officer Valerie Plame. In his trial for his role in the Plame affair, United States v. Libby,[3][4] the jury convicted Libby on four of the five counts in the indictment: one count of obstruction of justice; two counts of perjury; and one count of making false statements to federal investigators.
Libby is the highest-ranking White House official convicted in a government scandal since Henry Cisneros, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under Clinton pled guilty to one count of lying to the FBI. Cisneros was eventually pardoned by Clinton.
On June 5, 2007, the presiding trial judge, Reggie B. Walton, sentenced Libby to 30 months in federal prison, a fine of $250,000, and two years of supervised release, including 400 hours of community service,[10][11][12][13] and then ordered Libby to begin his sentence immediately.[14] On July 2, 2007, when Libby's appeal of Judge Walton's order failed, President Bush commuted Libby's 30-month prison sentence, leaving the other parts of his sentence intact.[15][16] In commuting Libby's prison term, Bush stated: "I am commuting the portion of Mr. Libby's sentence that required him to spend thirty months in prison. ... My decision to commute his prison sentence leaves in place a harsh punishment for Mr. Libby. The reputation he gained through his years of public service and professional work in the legal community is forever damaged."[15] After Libby paid his monetary fine and penalty totaling $ 250,400, Judge Walton queried aspects of the presidential commutation,[13][17] and lawyers filed their briefs supporting Libby's serving supervised release, resolving the issue and thus clearing the way for Libby to begin the rest of his sentence, the two years of supervised release and 400 hours of community service.[ |
This began as a 'conspiracy theory'. And you can bet there were both extremes on the scene. One accepting it without much or any conclusive evidence, and the other extreme denying it outright based on the same said evidence. Was it simply a leak from some bureaucrat, or a 'high-level conspiracy'? Fortunately, the system worked in outing the culprit and the former conspiracy is no longer. I guess 'hardcore' conspiracists may believe W ordered it, whatever.
The 'staged moon landing' conspiracy was quite intersting and funny (to me). It wasn't too difficult for scientists to help out in the matter. I personally never gave the conspiracy any merit but nevertheless heard it out and the subsequent debunking. It would take what I've referred to as a 'hardcore' conspiracist to believe that the gov't or its agencies somehow manipulated the programs that have debunked this.
So, the point is, it's healthy for a democracy to freely discuss potential conpiracies with a balanced approach. Obviously, there will always be wingnuts going overboard as there will be numbskulls who will outright dismiss everything even if it flies in the face of history. |
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