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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:29 am Post subject: Islam film Dutch MP to be charged |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7842344.stm
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A Dutch court has ordered prosecutors to put a right-wing politician on trial for making anti-Islamic statements.
Freedom Party leader Geert Wilders made a controversial film last year equating Islam with violence and has likened the Koran to Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.
"In a democratic system, hate speech is considered so serious that it is in the general interest to... draw a clear line," the court in Amsterdam said.
Mr Wilders said the judgement was an "attack on the freedom of expression".
"Participation in the public debate has become a dangerous activity. If you give your opinion, you risk being prosecuted," he said.
Not only he, but all Dutch citizens opposed to the "Islamisation" of their country would be on trial, Mr Wilders warned.
"Who will stand up for our culture if I am silenced?" he added. |
Anti-islam.. What's next?
Can't criticize an idea. Surrender and just suck it Eurabia. |
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Beeyee
Joined: 29 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| This is a very worrying development indeed for those of us who value free speech. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| You could convert to islam and get a tan. Lefty multiculty shakedowns wouldn't touch you with a thousand food pole, then. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Wilders is not exactly the most appealing poster-boy for freedom-of-speech...
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A year earlier, Mr Wilders described the Koran as a "fascist book" and called for it to be banned in "the same way we ban Mein Kampf", in a letter published in the De Volkskrant newspaper.
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But yeah, these laws are stupid, and I hope Wilder is fully acquitted. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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IF mein kamph is banned, then the koran should be too. Ideally, neither. But hate is hate, right? His logic is perfect. It is the conditions that are imperfect.
Anyways, determining that hating hate is hate is not exactly a good basis for policy. |
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chickenpie
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Yup. And I won't report you to a human rights kangaroo court for being honest. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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http://www.nrc.nl/international/Features/article2129590.ece
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Wilders feels persecuted in "political process"
Geert Wilders was �completely surprised� when he heard on Wednesday that the appeals court of Amsterdam ruled he shall be prosecuted for hate speech and inciting discrimination. Last year the public prosecutor had decided not to try the controversial Dutch member of parliament for his remarks about Islam. In an interview with NRC Handelsblad Wilders says he is "shaken, but also very angry and ready to fight."
"The public prosecutor agreed with me, that I can say what I said. The attorney general at the appeals court has argued the same. I never thought that things would turn out this way," Wilders says. Because of the appeals court ruling, the public prosecutor is forced to prosecute Wilders for statements such as "ban the Koran" and "the core of the problem is fascist Islam", statements Wilders has made in the media and his own film Fitna.
In its detailed order the appeals court says that your statements are a punishable offence. What do you think of the decision?
"I have studied the ruling in depth, and have come to the conclusion that it is a politically motivated verdict. Normally, in these kind of appeals cases, a court rules on subsequent steps and includes an explanation [of its legal logic]. But here the appeals court is entirely focused on the content of the case. Therefore I can no longer get a fair trial. Should I stand before the lower court judge, there will already be a peremptory ruling from the appeals court on his desk. And if I go for an appeal, I end up in the same court. The immediate colleagues of the judges who have already sentenced me, will then be in a position to rule. That is unbelievable. The Wall Street Journal editorial is right. The appeals court is introducing Saudi Arabian legal standards to the Netherlands."
But wasn't there a proper procedure, where you and your lawyer were able to stand up in your defence?
"That is not the case. I have given a statement, but the appeals court has not asked me a single question. I have not been allowed to call any witnesses or experts. This was no normal appeals procedure - this was a political process. They have given a verdict that is content-driven.. I have already been convicted. This is banana justice."
Wilders feels not only that the appeals court�s ruling is a political attack against him, but he says the pending change in Dutch anti-discrimination law is also aimed specifically at his populist PVV (Party for Freedom). Justice minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin (Christian Democrats) wants to do away with the legal ban on blasphemy, but at the same time change anti-discrimination act so that insulting a religion de facto means insulting the group that adheres to it.
"This is simply an anti-PVV proposition. A majority of parliament is likely to be opposed to it. But with this ruling Hirsch Ballin doesn't even need change the law anymore. Thanks to the appeals court, the jurisprudence has simply sailed into becoming law."
You have compared the Quran to Mein Kampf, and called Islam a fascist ideology. Why do you find that these remarks fit within the confines of the law?
"I am not the only one who thinks so. The public prosecutor also agrees, and many professors. Churchill said the same thing."
"I view Islam not as a religion, but as a dangerous, totalitarian ideology - equal to communism and fascism. Aren't I allowed to say so? If I say that about communism, there would not be a problem. I have never talked about people, I've always made it about ideology."
You've referred to the 'Muslim settlers.' Those are people, aren't they?
"That was not about all Muslims. That was referring to the problems in Gouda [where Moroccan youth caused problems that drew nationwide attention last October]. It was just about those Muslim settlers who spoil everything."
But couldn't that make all Muslims feel offended?
"You would be a great appeals court clerk. I am a democrat to the bone. I am allowed to say what I want."
Where do you draw the line?
"At calling for violence. Also, I will not say any base things about entire population groups. The government makes the distinction between western and non-western immigrants. I push it a bit further. But these things need to be thrashed out in the political arena, not in court."
Some critics say all this seems to suit you. You can exploit your role as victim at the hands of the political elite.
"That is a nasty insinuation. I do not want to be before a judge. I do not want to be prosecuted. I want to do my job in parliament. Hundreds of thousands of people have elected me to say what I say. I would need to be condemned if I did not speak my mind. The PVV is doing well. If elections were held today, polls indicate we would get 17 seats [in the 150 seat parliament], our highest mark in two years. The last thing I need is a lawsuit."
The world seems to be infused with new hope from the election of Obama. Isn't your whole approach and tone really 'very 2008'?
"You mean passe? It's not about the tone, it�s about the message. The problems with Islam will only increase. A bit of 'flower power' is fine, but that doesn't suit this isue. Our proposals are vital." |
From the criminal court of appeals:
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| In addition, the Court of Appeal considers criminal prosecution obvious for the insult of Islamic worshippers because of the comparisons made by Wilders of the islam with the nazism. |
Jesus. How many people have been labeled nazi's in the past decade? Just to be clear.. Will they be charged? Will this "no calling nazi" rule be applied across the board?
The parallels to Canada's own kangaroo HRC's are obvious. It is not "Dutch" society that can't handle muslim immigrants, but left-Dutch society. They apparently deem them emotionally unable to handle criticism that can a non-muslim. So much for respect!
http://ezralevant.com/2009/01/hollands-national-suicide-note.html
Last edited by mises on Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: |
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All hate is apparently not equal. If you're a muslim hate-preacher, then no prob.
http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/090123-khalid-yasin
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Radical Muslim preacher welcome in Rotterdam
Justice Minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin rejects demands by two parties to bar a radical Islamic preacher from speaking in the Netherlands.
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Khalid Yasin has been quoted as:
* advocating the death penalty for homosexuality
* claiming the HIV virus was deliberately engineered by Western governments
* questioning the existence of al-Qaeda and its involvement in the 9/11 attacks
* asserting that the 2002 and 2005 Bali bombings were justified in the light of a history of Western oppression of Islam
Khalid Yasin:
"There's no such thing as a Muslim having a non-Muslim friend. If you prefer the clothing of the kafirs over the clothing of the Muslims, most of those names that's on most of those clothings is faggots, homosexuals and lesbians...The Koran gives a very clear position regarding homosexuality, lesbianism and bestiality - that these are aberrations, they are immoralities and if they are tried, convicted, they are punishable by death."
"Osama bin Laden is not everywhere, omnipotent. ... where's Osama bin Laden? That would warrant $68 billion in 17 countries hunting him and everyone in their houses being afraid of this kind of Osama bin Laden bogey man. This is a creation ... in order to justify a war they call on terror but is really a terror they have put inside the people. It is a war against Islam... There has been no evidence that has surfaced, no bona fide irrevocable, irrefutable evidence ... that there is a group called al-Qa'ida that did the September 11 bombings. I'm of the opinion there was a rogue operation that took place." |
Just like in Canada. "Hate" isn't a problem, unless you're hating the haters. muslims can hold mass rallies and chant "Jews to the oven" and no problem. Call them out on it.. Well.. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Well, are these cases exactly analagous? The Muslim preacher is simply being allowed into the country at this point. In order to know if there is a double-standard at work, we'd have to wait for him to make offensive comemnts while in Holland, and see if the government prosecutes or not.
Or, we could see if there is a case of a Christian guy who said similar things outside of the Netherlands, being denied entry into the country. That would also demonstrate a double-standard.
So far, the authorities say he will in fact be charged if he says anything offensive...
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| Rotterdam's recently appointed mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb told the ANP agency that Mr Yasin is welcome in his city, but the mayor said he did not want to become involved in a discussion over religion. "Every individual has their own perception of religion." Mr Aboutaleb rejected censorship and said he was hoping for a lively debate, "but if his texts are insulting or inciting to hatred, we'll prosecute him." |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Well, are these cases exactly analagous? The Muslim preacher is simply being allowed into the country at this point. In order to know if there is a double-standard at work, we'd have to wait for him to make offensive comemnts while in Holland, and see if the government prosecutes or not.
Or, we could see if there is a case of a Christian guy who said similar things outside of the Netherlands, being denied entry into the country. That would also demonstrate a double-standard.
So far, the authorities say he will in fact be charged if he says anything offensive...
| Quote: |
| Rotterdam's recently appointed mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb told the ANP agency that Mr Yasin is welcome in his city, but the mayor said he did not want to become involved in a discussion over religion. "Every individual has their own perception of religion." Mr Aboutaleb rejected censorship and said he was hoping for a lively debate, "but if his texts are insulting or inciting to hatred, we'll prosecute him." |
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I wouldn't hold your breath for any kind of equality. Just like in Canada. muslims have more rights than non-muslims, now. I can see it changing already.
http://thewip.net/contributors/2009/01/the_rise_of_the_right_europes.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/29/europe/politicus.php |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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What's next? Banning ham, alcohol, pre-marital sex, and women's suffrage?
Freedom of Speech. Remember that concept...?
Part of the problem is that in the West, Islam poses as an oppressed minority in need of protection. This is why some on the left feel a knee-jerk impulse to help protect it.
However, many of the Islamic leaders living in the western countries would like nothing better than to live by and impose Islamic Sharia laws on the rest of us. They won't specifically say this of course. At best, even the moderate Muslim leaders advocate punishment for any that criticize Islam in any way, shape, or form (remember the controversy with the cartoons of Mohammed?).
To make things worse, if you look at Islam as an ideology and examine it, there is almost NOTHING left-wing about it. It deals with blind subservience to authority, an Islamic authority. Why the left would choose to protect it and shield it from criticism is beyond stupid. If anything, it should be cracked open and shown for what it really is.
Of course, I feel the same about all religions. They should all be equally examined and criticized. Why should we automatically respect any religion? As an ideology they should be no different from any other set of ideas or beliefs. If someone is a Socialist, we see no problem criticizing those ideas and taking them to task. Why should it be any different for those who believe in angels, devils, talking snakes, and virgin births? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| You're my new favorite poster. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: |
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In Canada, being openly bigoted against a religious group is not considered acceptable. I am not sure what this politician did in terms of how he presented it. If it is considered hate speech and not simply an analysis of the religion in an objective then, that's different. One could say that the Old Testatement in the eyes of some secular people sounds genocidal. I personally would be careful when labeling a whole group as fascist. As far as exclaiming anti-Jewish stuff, people should be prosecuted for that as well if that's part of the laws of the country.
I find what he said to be despicable, but I am not sure he should be prosecuted for it. You could argue that either way. I do have some question marks about such a ruling and also the idea that you can't really discuss the holocaust in a controversial manner without risking jail time.
Wilders released his film �Fitna� on the Internet in March 2008. The 15-minute movie features verses from the Koran alongside images of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
In the movie, he calls on Muslims to rip out �hate- preaching� verses from the book. The politician called the Koran �fascist� in an editorial in De Volkskrant and said it should be banned.
More than 40 people reported Wilders� editorial comments to the police and others complained about the film, the prosecutor said last year. The movie led to protests in majority-Muslim countries including Indonesia and Pakistan and calls for the boycott of Dutch products in Malaysia.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=anIUQcBjnZmk |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| In Canada, being openly bigoted against a religious group is not considered acceptable. |
What?
No. Being "openly bigoted" about ISLAM is not considered acceptable. Being openly bigoted against Christians and Christianity is the norm in 'educated society' (and me). I can say whatever the hell I want about right wing Christians. I can talk shit about JC to my hearts consent.
And furthermore, one doesn't need to be "openly bigoted" against a "religious GROUP" but only ISLAM to have the state jump up your ass. Drawing a distinction between muslims (most of whom just had the severe misfortune of being born into their fathers religion) and the horrific, hate-filled, arrogant, supremacist and ultra violent koran doesn't matter. The group (muslims) are lumped in with their violent religion by lil'lefties and their thought crimes. That is, to be critical of islam is to be hateful to muslims. Sheer stupidity.
For example, thousands of muslims attended marches in Canada (in Calgary, they protested outside a Jewish cultural center totally unrelated to Israel) and chanting various hate-stuffs about ovens/Jews etc. Typical "moderate" Religion of Peace nonsense. No problem. But McCleans calls islam out for what it is, and the HRC's jump up her ass.
Jesus Adventurer. Where the hell have you been? |
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