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ESL Teacher denies Holocaust, goes to jail; bishop embraced
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michaelambling



Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Location: Paradise
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: ESL Teacher denies Holocaust, goes to jail; bishop embraced Reply with quote
So, this story is familiar to many: http://blog.esldaily.org/2008/10/14/retired-esl-teacher-faces-extradition-ffrom-u-k-to-germany-for-running-holocaust-denial-website-in-australia.aspx

Now there's a Catholic bishop who's denied the Holocaust:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?_r=1&hp

Is the EU going to be fair and extradite this bishop and imprison him? I'm in no way a supporter of Holocaust deniers, but I don't like it when some people are considered above the law, nor do I like any law that makes words illegal, no matter how disgusting those words might be.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, don't get how this works. The legal status of holocaust-denial varies from country to country. If Toben was violating Australian law in Australia(or on an Autralian server), he can be charged under Australian law. But he's being extradited from to Europe for something he did in Australia?

Suppose I start a website in Canada, on a Canadian server, and devote it to insulting the Chinese Communist Party. Can I be extradited to China for breaking their laws?

I'm wondering if the article about Toben is leaving something out. Was he using an EU-based web-server?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
On the other hand wrote:
Yeah, don't get how this works. The legal status of holocaust-denial varies from country to country. If Toben was violating Australian law in Australia(or on an Autralian server), he can be charged under Australian law. But he's being extradited from to Europe for something he did in Australia?

Suppose I start a website in Canada, on a Canadian server, and devote it to insulting the Chinese Communist Party. Can I be extradited to China for breaking their laws?

I'm wondering if the article about Toben is leaving something out. Was he using an EU-based web-server?


I don't know if this is relevant here, but here goes.

Jurisdictional questions concerning the internet is an emerging field of law, and in the States it can get quite complicated. Some questions I might have regarding your hypo:

1) Were you directing advertising on your website into China?

2) Were you linking to other sites that had a great deal of China-based traffic?

3) Were you making any other active efforts to draw Chinese traffic?

If the answer to all these questions is no, I think you would be safe. You might even be able to get away with #2, although if you were to allow web-ads directed at Chinese per #1, you might have other issues.

Note that I'm using what I learned in Civil Procedure for this. Jurisdiction for criminal matters might be a higher bar for the state to muster, so you might even be safe violating all three above.
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kotakji



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm I always kinda assumed that Extradition only covered actions that were illegal in both states? It seems odd that Australia would be compelled to extradite someone for an action that's not illegal in Australia. Or is holocaust denial illegal in Australia?
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michaelambling



Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Location: Paradise
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kotakji wrote:
Hmm I always kinda assumed that Extradition only covered actions that were illegal in both states? It seems odd that Australia would be compelled to extradite someone for an action that's not illegal in Australia. Or is holocaust denial illegal in Australia?


It has nothing to do with Australia--the location of the servers is a non-sequitur, as has previously been noted. He was in the UK and extradited to Germany; in both countries, Holocaust denying is illegal, and it is an extraditable offense according to EU law.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Michealambling wrote:

Quote:
It has nothing to do with Australia--the location of the servers is a non-sequitur, as has previously been noted. He was in the UK and extradited to Germany;


Well, I guess I was confused, because your link said...

Quote:
http://blog.esldaily.org/2008/10/14/retired-esl-teacher-faces-extradition-ffrom-u-k-to-germany-for-running-holocaust-denial-website-in-australia.aspx


The actual website seems not to be functioning right now, so I can't go back and see what the exact relevance of Autralia was. As I recall, though, the article wasn't really clear about in what way exactly he was doing this "in Australia". The guy apparently did live in Australia at some point.
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RJjr



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm surprised Ernst Zundel was arrested in Tennessee. Andrew Jackson, a man who committed genocide against numerous Native American tribes, is idolized in Tennessee and is on the American $20 bill to this day.
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kotakji



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
michaelambling wrote:

It has nothing to do with Australia--the location of the servers is a non-sequitur, as has previously been noted. He was in the UK and extradited to Germany; in both countries, Holocaust denying is illegal, and it is an extraditable offense according to EU law.


Ooops, I missed the part about being in Heathrow. The thought stands though- does the UK have laws about holocaust denial? I suppose Britain's membership in the EU muddys the waters.

I did notice this in the update:

"The warrant was dismissed by the court on October 29. The judge stated that the details it contained were "sparse". The German authorities had failed to specify the times and places of the alleged offences."

So it seems Im not the only one confused about the legalities at hand.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
The thought stands though- does the UK have laws about holocaust denial?


I always thought that Germany was the only European country with laws prohibiting holocaust-denial specifically(ie. they actually single out the Nazi holocaust as illegal to deny). I think the UK has more generalized laws about promoting racial hatred or something.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Boy, Israel gets out of line and all of a sudden we have 15 threads on the Jews.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994