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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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OTOH:
Good point but you'd be hard pressed to find another region dominated by a single religion and language (unless you count Iran and Pakistan out) which is so democratically deprived, you must admit.
caniff penned:
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Alternative energy is on the horizon. The entire region needs to be relegated to the inconsequential and left to stew in its own shit until it can pull itself together.
That goes for Pakistan, Israel, Saudi, Iran, the lot of them. Western liberal democracy and the sorry excuses for states in the ME are like oil and water, and no good is coming from our dealings with them. |
A-men, bruddah. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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I once read an interesting book by a liberal Israeli decrieing the attitude of many young Israeli's against the arabs. It was written in the 1980's and yet at the end he made the point that the Arab countries could not accept a truly democratic Israel in the middle east as it would make them look bad.
Is that true? Would a truly democratic state in the middle east make many states lose face? |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
I'd be a little worried if I were Israeli for two reasons.
1. The religious right continues to gain strength.
2. Demographics do not favor Israel. The arab populations are growing quicker, and the nutball right-wing jewish population produces a lot more offspring than the more moderate, secular-oriented population. That could become a rather lethal combo. |
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=373225 |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Summer Wine wondered:
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| ...he made the point that the Arab countries could not accept a truly democratic Israel in the middle east as it would make them look bad. |
In most ways, Israel makes the Arab states look bad. Part of what fuels their hostile reaction is sheer jealousy, which the apologists here never admit.
But the existence of Israel also provides these states with a convenient scapegoat for their own societal ills.
Hence it's what Jefferson once referred to in another context as "holding the wolf by the ears." |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| The Arab states make the Arab states look bad. Israel makes Israel look bad. They don't need any help from each other. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: |
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RJjr:
Simplistic explantion noted. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Summer Wine wondered:
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| ...he made the point that the Arab countries could not accept a truly democratic Israel in the middle east as it would make them look bad. |
In most ways, Israel makes the Arab states look bad. Part of what fuels their hostile reaction is sheer jealousy, which the apologists here never admit.
But the existence of Israel also provides these states with a convenient scapegoat for their own societal ills.
Hence it's what Jefferson once referred to in another context as "holding the wolf by the ears." |
You are parroting the words of a failed president -George Bush.
He said that Binladin attack America out of jealousy. That's quite simplistic. Israel just tried to ban two political parties. Israel is partially holding up things in the region, because a lot of the focus is the Middle East issue. Israel has also been regressing as a state in many ways. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Al Qaeda fights for their concept of the Caliphate.
Case closed. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Al Qaeda fights for their concept of the Caliphate.
Case closed. |
That may be part of their goal, I agree, yes, but it is certainly because they are jealous of the US. I don't think the Arabs who oppose Israel are doing it out of jealousy. That would be like saying the Indians who opposed the British Empire were opposing them partially, because they were jealous. Conflicts are not generally about jealousy.
As far as the Arab states using Israel as an excuse for not developing, that is true, but one should not dismiss the presence of war or a region with people feeling under seige as something good for development.
We can say more attention would be put toward development if there was no conflict, but the conflict is not responsible for all the ills of the region for sure, but you can't simply dismiss the deleterious effects of confict on the Jews or Arabs. It makes no psychological sense to do so. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jealously may very well be a factor in the arab Israeli conflict though it is certainly not the only reason. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Jealously may very well be a factor in the arab Israeli conflict though it is certainly not the only reason. |
I think you mean to say that is it a possible factor, and it may not be the only reason. This is a highly speculative assertion that MIM used.
There are problems with such an assertion since many people who are pluralistic, democratic criticize Israel sharply on its human rights reasons.
The Arabs do not oppose Israel because it has a democracy, but because they view Israel to be an occupying power, and they feel some sympathy for the Palestinians, and the Israeli Jews are not Arabs. There is nothing to indicate out there that jealousy is playing a role in the conflict.
I think such allegations are used to say that the Israelis are advanced, and the Arabs are backward, and that the Arabs hate feeling inferior and jealous, so they are lashing out. It doesn't make sense, and that's what it seems to imply. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer, suffering from SRS (Selective Reading Syndrome) replied:
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| You are parroting the words of a failed president |
Nice try, mate. Odd choice of words coming from a pirate. I've felt this way for decades, from the time I actually LIVED in the Middle East. And I only indicated that it was PART of the reason, which you conveniently overlooked. Thanks for playing.
Even Arab entrepreneurs, like the Jordanian CEO of Aramex, have openly admitted as much. But I suppose they're just Uncle Toms--er--Uncle Shimons. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
You are parroting the words of a failed president -George Bush.
He said that Binladin attack America out of jealousy. That's quite simplistic. |
Did he specify what bin Laden was jealous about? For all his faults, bin Laden appeared to have more money and women than Bush. |
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