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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Joo, your last article mentions that Sharon and co should have been aware of the 'potential' of the danger. In fact, the IDF watched for 2 days as all this transpired in front of their eyes. They even lit up the camp with flares at night so the phalangists could continue with their good work. Women and children begged the IDF to let them flee, and the IDF forced them back into the camp, knowing full well what was going on there. During that time, journalists were able to report to the world what was going on, and it was the world outcry that got Reagan on the phone to the Israelis to demand an end to it. Despite Reagan's request, the IDF gave the phalangists quite a bit more time to try and finish their work.
In other words, it is complete bollocks to say the mistake was not knowing that bad things might happen. The IDF continued to collude with their proxies knowing very well what was happening, and for a significant period even after outside parties knew full well what was going on. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Joo, your last article mentions that Sharon and co should have been aware of the 'potential' of the danger. In fact, the IDF watched for 2 days as all this transpired in front of their eyes. They even lit up the camp with flares at night so the phalangists could continue with their good work. Women and children begged the IDF to let them flee, and the IDF forced them back into the camp, knowing full well what was going on there. During that time, journalists were able to report to the world what was going on, and it was the world outcry that got Reagan on the phone to the Israelis to demand an end to it. Despite Reagan's request, the IDF gave the phalangists quite a bit more time to try and finish their work.
In other words, it is complete bollocks to say the mistake was not knowing that bad things might happen. The IDF continued to collude with their proxies knowing very well what was happening, and for a significant period even after outside parties knew full well what was going on. |
I will go with what the article says. It seems to give a good accounting of the facts , who was there , who was responsible and the degree of responsibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Double post - see below
Last edited by Big_Bird on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Joo, your last article mentions that Sharon and co should have been aware of the 'potential' of the danger. In fact, the IDF watched for 2 days as all this transpired in front of their eyes. They even lit up the camp with flares at night so the phalangists could continue with their good work. Women and children begged the IDF to let them flee, and the IDF forced them back into the camp, knowing full well what was going on there. During that time, journalists were able to report to the world what was going on, and it was the world outcry that got Reagan on the phone to the Israelis to demand an end to it. Despite Reagan's request, the IDF gave the phalangists quite a bit more time to try and finish their work.
In other words, it is complete bollocks to say the mistake was not knowing that bad things might happen. The IDF continued to collude with their proxies knowing very well what was happening, and for a significant period even after outside parties knew full well what was going on. |
I will go with what the article says. It seems to give a good accounting of the facts , who was there , who was responsible and the degree of responsibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre |
Then from your own article:
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By noon of September 15th, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) had completely surrounded the Sabra-Shatila camps, and controlled all entrances and exits by the means of checkpoints. The IDF also occupied a number of multi-story buildings as observation posts. Amongst those was the seven-story Kuwaiti embassy which, according to TIME, had "an unobstructed and panoramic view" of the camps. Hours later, IDF tanks began shelling the camps.[13]
Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan[15] met with the Lebanese Phalangist militia units, inviting them to enter the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps to clean out terrorist nests. Under the Israeli plan, Israeli soldiers would control the perimeters of the refugee camps and provide logistical support while the Phalangists would enter the camps, find the PLO fighters and hand them over to Israeli forces.[citation needed] The meetings concluded at 3:00 p.m. September 16.[13]
An hour later, 1,500 militiamen assembled at Beirut International Airport, then occupied by Israel. Under the command of Elie Hobeika, they began moving towards the camps in IDF supplied Jeeps, following Israeli guidance on how to enter the camps. The forces were mostly Phalangist, though there were some men from Saad Haddad's "Free Lebanon forces".[13]
The first unit of 150 Phalangists entered the camps at 6:00 p.m. A battle ensued that at times Palestinians claim involved lining up Palestinians for execution.[13] During the night the Israeli forces fired illuminating flares over the camps. According to a Dutch nurse, the camp was as bright as "a sports stadium during a football game".[16]
At 11:00 p.m. a report was sent to the IDF headquarters in East Beirut, reporting the killings of 300 people, including civilians. The report was forwarded to headquarters in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, where it was seen by more than 20 senior Israeli officers.[13] |
So here, only 5 hours in, the Israelis have already a report that 300 people have been killed, with civillians among them. It is now known by high level officers that some bad sh!t is going down.
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| Further reports of these killings followed through the night. Some of these reports were forwarded to the Israeli government in Jerusalem and were seen by a number of Israel's senior officials.[citation needed] |
And so it continues. Senior officials are aware of what is going on.
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| For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of the refugee camps, while the Israeli military guarded the exits and allegedly continued to provide flares by night.[citation needed] |
Despite already knowing the situation, the IDF allow it to continue for at least 36 hours.
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| At one point, a militiaman's radioed question to his commander Hobeika about what to do with the women and children in the refugee camp was overheard by an Israeli officer, who heard Hobeika reply that "This is the last time you're going to ask me a question like that; you know exactly what to do". Phalangist troops could be heard laughing in the background.[14] The Israeli officer reported this to his superior, Brig. Gen. Amos Yaron, who warned Hobeika against hurting civilians but took no further action. Lt. Avi Grabowsky was cited by the Kahan Commission as having seen (on that Friday) the murder of five women and children, and gave a hearsay report of a battalion commander saying of this, "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere." Israeli soldiers surrounding the camps turned back Palestinians fleeing the camps, as filmed by a Visnews cameraman. |
Knowing that women and children were in terrible danger, the IDF refused to let them flee the camps. In fact, the IDF were able to view much of the attrocity from their vantage points.
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Later in the afternoon, a meeting was held between the Israeli Chief of Staff and the Phalangist staff. According to the Kahan Commission's report (based on a Mossad agent's report), the Chief of Staff concluded that the Phalange should "continue action, mopping up the empty camps south of Fakahani until tomorrow at 5:00 a.m., at which time they must stop their action due to American pressure." He stated that he had "no feeling that something irregular had occurred or was about to occur in the camps." At this meeting, he also agreed to provide the militia with a tractor, supposedly to demolish buildings.
On Friday, September 17, while the camps still were sealed off, a few independent observers managed to enter. Among them were a Norwegian journalist and diplomat Gunnar Flakstad, who observed Phalangists during their cleanup operations, removing dead bodies from destroyed houses in the Shatila camp".[17]
The Phalangists did not exit the camps at 5:00 a.m. on Saturday as ordered. They forced the remaining survivors to march out of the camps, randomly killing individuals[citation needed], and sending others to the stadium for interrogations; this went on for the entire day. The militia finally left the camps at 8:00 a.m. on September 18. The first foreign journalists allowed into the camps at 9:00 a.m. found hundreds of bodies scattered about the camp. The first official news of the massacre was broadcast around noon. |
The IDF permitted it to go on, and it was only American pressure that caused them to put an end to it.
In fact, your article lacks citations, but I have read very detailed accounts with very good citation, and the case against the IDF, Eitan and Sharon are damning. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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There is a whole article there with lots of info, and if someone wants to understand the event , it is good to read the whole article. I am not going to defend or apologize for what went on , that doesn't mean that I or anyone else ought to accept the accounts of the left wing European press about what occurred.
I would say it is a good idea to accept what the article says. |
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