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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: W. Bush's Long-Term Legacy in Iraq...? |
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BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Voting ended Saturday evening for Iraqi provincial elections and the mood was festive in some places, unlike the violence, intimidation and apathy that marked the balloting in 2005.
"Politics has broken out in Iraq. ... It's truly a proud moment," Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Barham Saleh told CNN. "The distance that we have come is truly inspiring."
Preliminary results were expected within a week, members of the Electoral Commission said at a news conference Saturday night.
Only two instances of violence were reported.
CNN's Arwa Damon, who toured polling stations with U.N. observers, said she noticed an increased sense of awareness and optimism among voters, who felt their participation would have an impact on their lives and country...
"We are trying to build a new system of government in the heart of the Islamic Middle East," Saleh said... |
CNN Reports |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: |
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At the time of the invasion, I was deeply sympathetic to the goals being discussed (democracy, and a domino effect). I didn't think it was worth the cost (which was more than my worst expectations).
I hope America was successful in remaking that country. I am very skeptical for a variety of reasons. |
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Chuvok
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I hope America was successful in remaking that country. I am very skeptical for a variety of reasons. |
Iraq is a complete failure. There is no success at all. None.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead, millions have had their lives ruined. People who were once secure in life are now living in poverty across the country.
Only a fool would suggest there has been positive change in that country. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I am very skeptical for a variety of reasons. |
Our friend's pessimism and talk of "fools," notwithstanding, my own feeling is this: too soon to tell for certain. We need to wait and see for at least a decade or so.
But, preliminarily speaking, the W. Bush administration's Middle-East-wide response to 9/11 seems to have created profound change in Iraq. Can you imagine Iraq going from where it was under Saddam's despotism to where it is today any other way? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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my own feeling is this: too soon to tell for certain. We need to wait and see for at least a decade or so.
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That reminds me of Zhou Enlai's answer(possibly apocryphal) when asked about the French Revolution.
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| Can you imagine Iraq going from where it was under Saddam's despotism to where it is today any other way? |
Well you know, Khruschev/Brezhenv era Russia was astronomically more liberal than Stalin-era Russia. Ditto when you compare post-Mao China to China at the time of the Cultural Revolution. Granted, those liberal Communist states weren't(and in the case of China, aren't) holding free elections, but then you should also factor into the equation that the process of liberalization in those countries didn't entail hundreds of thousands of deaths. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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But this is not about Soviet Russia or theoretical analogies. It is about one specific trajectory: Iraq 2003-present.
And but for the W. Bush administration's Middle-East-wide response to 9/11, we would almost certainly see Saddam in Iraq today. And we would not see the kind of democratic processes CNN reports, above. This remains interesting to follow because this is exactly what W. Bush said he intended to create there. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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but at an incredibly high cost. And it remains to be seen if a democratic Iraq is beneficial to the United States.
So yes, we'll have to wait at least a decade, assuming the country does not "regress" back into some type of authoritarian gov't before then. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Chuvok wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
I hope America was successful in remaking that country. I am very skeptical for a variety of reasons. |
Iraq is a complete failure. There is no success at all. None.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead, millions have had their lives ruined. People who were once secure in life are now living in poverty across the country.
Only a fool would suggest there has been positive change in that country. |
How many Iraqis had a secure life under Saddam?
How many Saddam killed and intended to kill needs to be counted in. and Saddam had ambitions far beyond Iraq. |
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Chuvok
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
How many Iraqis had a secure life under Saddam?
How many Saddam killed and intended to kill needs to be counted in. and Saddam had ambitions far beyond Iraq. |
B.S.! That's dirty Fox News talk!!
Whether Saddam was good or bad, it wasn't any of the Bush family's business. Millions of Iraqis fled and are still scattered around the world as refugees, millions more are living in daily terror of being killed in the streets or while they sleep. Nearly every Iraqi family has lost someone to this foolish american invasion.
Do not insult those people by claiming their suffering is better than when Saddam was still around. People had normal lives under Saddam, even though the US was making every effort to sanction them to death for 10 years. It was the US who created and sustained the pain in Iraq, and YOU as an american are to blame for it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Chuvok wrote: |
| ...and YOU as an american are to blame for it. |
We have blood on our hands, no doubt. Where are you from, by the way? Are you Canadian?
In any case, we may also claim credit for cultivating and nurturing such developments as this...
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| BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Four thousand women are running for office in Iraq's provincial elections Saturday, and many of them will be guaranteed seats under an electoral quota system... |
CNN Reports |
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