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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Psy wrote: |
| Circus Monkey wrote: |
The reason why I know that those individuals were Korean is because they identified themselves as such and I took them at their word. I don't have the time, resources, nor patience to conduct a background check on people that post.
Besides, the original person said something to the effect of "wouldn't it be nice if more Koreans posted here" to which I replied, "sure, but those that did weren't able to argue well and got all emotional." I realize those aren't my exact words but I'm sure you can understand the intent.
As well, why do you do the oh so clever trick of replacing "Korean" with "Westerners"? Boy, you sure are clever. The original question is not about Westerners visiting the board, but Koreans.
I think you are trying to turn this into a race issue. Perhaps you should remove that chip off your shoulder.
CM |
Yes I understand your intent well. It's very clear that you wish more Koreans posted here, but you actually do not, because they get emotional. This is because they can't argue well which you actually seem to think "they" are all good for. What does a Korean posting here and being able to argue well have to do with one another? Are you looking for Koreans to argue with? Or are you trying to point out that all Koreans are emotional? Or do you feel superior to Koreans because you can argue "your way out of a paper bag"? So, once again, I ask you, What is your point?
I am not not trying to turn this into a race issue. Rather, you already have whether you realize it or not. |
Oh, you're so clever. 
Let me make this very clear. It has been my experience that the majority of the Koreans who do post here get all emotional because of what they see here on the board. Attempts to engage them in conversation and argue logically has failed. Why can't you understand that yet?
It would be nice to have Koreans who post here who can argue logically. I thought that a clever person like yourself would have caught that by now.
CM
Last edited by Circus Monkey on Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Psy wrote: |
| Circus Monkey wrote: |
I forgot to address this point earlier. Korea does not need people with a Master's degree teaching at a hagwon. What they need are, for lack of a better term, technicians armed with a 4 year degree plus a CELTA or something like that.
Really, when you look at the pay scales in job ads, the difference between a Masters and a BA is insignificant. All that is going on is that the minimum bar is being raised.
You really seem to have an axe to grind here - especially with you last little "maybe not" comment. Listen, the whole ESL problems cannot be laid at the feet of the evil foreigner. Get that through your head.
You don't want to learn English? That's fine with me.
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I was writing this in the point of view of the recruiters, not teachers. The whole point of my post was, maybe if standards for teachers of English were raised a bit higher, we'd have fewer inept teachers in the workplace. Understand now? Higher standards = more qualified teachers = more job opportunites = higher pay = higher job security. Shall I go on?
I have no idea what your response means. Nor, do I really care. Because to me, it is obvious that personal attacks is the only thing you're good at, not making points. It makes you feel good to put someone down, doesn't it? Put them in their place. You go, boy!
If I wanted to learn English, it sure wouldn't be from you. |
Ah, so nice of you to state that you were talking about this from a recruiter's point of view. The recruiters are, for the most part, something that this industry could do without or at least needs a massive overhaul. Recruiters don't have much pull in raising standards, but rather have to work with the talent that is available.
Since you are a recruiter, you should look to your own profession and feel dismayed at the snake oil salemen running rampant. You speak of standards. How about the Korean government cracking down on the shady recruiters? Are you in favour of that? Why do you feel the need to belabour the foreign teacher? The problem is more complex than that, okay? Stop trying to point to only one part of the problem and feel that raising standards in that area will fix everything.
Also, higher standards does not necessarily result in higher pay nor translate into job security. It just means that employers are merely raising the bar for the same job - which is happening now in Korea. And do you really think there is job security in Korea for the average EFL teacher? Most everyone goes through the same song and dance as you near the renewal date - because it all depends on your relationship with the boss.
How about higher employer standards (here meaning get rid of shady, two bit, corrupt owners and treat employees decently) = attract higher quality teachers = higher educational standards being realized? Hmmmm.
Finally, if you limited that only foreigners holding an Eng Lit degree (which teaches nothing about second language aquisition) or a MEd (which may not teach anything about SLA) then you will find the labour pool dry up very quickly.
Upon review, I can see how I may have misinterpreted the "maybe not" comment. I get the impression you feel that if the standards were indeed raised you still don't feel that an adequate solution was found and seem to imply that it's the foreigner's fault for the Koreans not getting it "the first time around." Now, I could be wrong here but I don't think I am.
Certainly you realize that learning a language is not just the responsibility of the teacher but also that of the student?
Again, I say to you that people who have the basics in teaching EFL and who wish to pursue that path should be encouraged. A person with a Masters degree, especially in Education, would be banging their heads against the walls in a hagwon. Heck, someone with a BEd is overqualified for a hagwon job.
My two cents? The Korean government needs to have a clear purpose on what they want to achieve and implement it carefully and consistently. Good intentions are nice (raise standards) but enforcement is the key issue.
CM |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I'll say this, recruiters are completely irrelevant and unnecessary. We as educated articulate individuals are quite capable of finding our own work, making contact with a Hagwon, and negotiating a contract. Recruiters make huge money for doing nothing. I could do it all myself with my eyes closed, and I have. I never use a recruiter.
I did use one when I first came here, and found that he lied on several major points of my contract and conditions. They do that when you are in a far away country and they need to offer something pretty attractive to get you up off your butt and onto a plane. Once they have you here, all their lies become obvious, but it's too late for you. I'm glad I stuck out my first contract, and learned how to get work without a recruiter. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
Oh, you're so clever.
Let me make this very clear. It has been my experience that the majority of the Koreans who do post here get all emotional because of what they see here on the board. Attempts to engage them in conversation and argue logically has failed. Why can't you understand that yet? |
Link?
| Quote: |
| It would be nice to have Koreans who post here who can argue logically. I thought that a clever person like yourself would have caught that by now. |
Your postings in this thread have not been an example of a logical argument. Why are you damning others for doing the same as you? |
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Psy
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Location: Hongdae
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
Oh, you're so clever.
Let me make this very clear. It has been my experience that the majority of the Koreans who do post here get all emotional because of what they see here on the board. Attempts to engage them in conversation and argue logically has failed. Why can't you understand that yet?
It would be nice to have Koreans who post here who can argue logically. I thought that a clever person like yourself would have caught that by now.
CM |
Let me make this very clear. AND THIS IS MY POINT. If what you state is indeed true, what does it matter and what does it have to do with people reading and discussing topics on this forum? Do you need peoples' approval or someone to agree with you that "indeed Koreans on this forum cannot argue their way out of a paper bag" or that they are "emotional and cannot argue logically". Do you want people to respond to your post by stating or thinking to themselves... "Why yes, he's right, Koreans are all emotional on this board and if I find out one of them is indeed Korea, I'd better either avoid them or try not to argue with them." Tough luck then. Because, the only reason I can see for you to post something so ignorant is to either 1) Put down other people or 2) Put yourself above other people. Please clarify where I am being contradictory or not being very clear to you. If I am wrong, let me ask ONE MORE TIME, what is the point of that post? Otherwise, I will assume the rest of my response which you failed to address on your previous response and this one is correct as well.
| Quote: |
| It would be nice to have Koreans who post here who can argue logically. I thought that a clever person like yourself would have caught that by now. |
Which I respond, How do you know if the people that post are korean or not? You are using the present tense here, not past I remind you.
You responded like this before.
| Quote: |
| I don't have the time, resources, nor patience to conduct a background check on people that post. |
I only try to address comments that can be taken offensive, not insult others' or their comments. If you feel I have attacked you personally, I apologize.
Thank you
Last edited by Psy on Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Psy
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Location: Hongdae
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Psy wrote: |
| I was writing this in the point of view of the recruiters, not teachers. |
I meant employers, not recruiters. |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
Oh, you're so clever.
Let me make this very clear. It has been my experience that the majority of the Koreans who do post here get all emotional because of what they see here on the board. Attempts to engage them in conversation and argue logically has failed. Why can't you understand that yet? |
I don't always save all the posts that Koreans make here. Unfortunately, the posts made by Mr. Kim "The Kia Man" are long gone.
edit: Ah, here is a keeper by Drakoi.
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Drakoi
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 178
Location: The World
Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:13 pm Post subject:
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no, they make me more anti-western. in general. I had already known that most americans are rather ignorant and closed minded, but because of the peculiar demographics of westerners here, that point is empahsized in a disproportionate fashion. |
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=14842&start=45
I realize one quote is hardly representative, since general patterns need to be made. All I can say it that it has been "in my experience". Fine with you? I suppose I can look for old Mr. Kim posts somewhere. He was quite amusing.
edit 2:Another keeper by Drakoi:
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:14 am Post subject:
when two sides are so diametrically opposed, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. Balance is a good thing. |
In this very thread! That is a golden mean fallacy. Then he started going on about how the Earth is a spheroid rather than when I said it was a sphere. I mean, I sure can see how his nitpicks completely ruined my argument.
But to make absolutely sure about Drakoi I shall ask him of his nationality. Drakoi, are you a Korean or a Gyopo? Be honest. I'm pretty sure you are based on your other comments but I'd like some confirmation.
| CM wrote: |
| It would be nice to have Koreans who post here who can argue logically. I thought that a clever person like yourself would have caught that by now. |
| Gord wrote: |
| Your postings in this thread have not been an example of a logical argument. Why are you damning others for doing the same as you? |
Not my best work, I agree. But I am careful to make a hasty generalization about all Koreans that post here - hence the words "in my experience". As well, it would seem that Psy is trying to psychoanalyze me for what exactly? Trying to construct a strawman? Who knows.
CM
Last edited by Circus Monkey on Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:31 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Psy wrote: |
| Circus Monkey wrote: |
Oh, you're so clever.
Let me make this very clear. It has been my experience that the majority of the Koreans who do post here get all emotional because of what they see here on the board. Attempts to engage them in conversation and argue logically has failed. Why can't you understand that yet?
It would be nice to have Koreans who post here who can argue logically. I thought that a clever person like yourself would have caught that by now.
CM |
Let me make this very clear. AND THIS IS MY POINT. If what you state is indeed true, what does it matter and what does it have to do with people reading and discussing topics on this forum? Do you need peoples' approval or someone to agree with you that "indeed Koreans on this forum cannot argue their way out of a paper bag" or that they are "emotional and cannot argue logically". Do you want people to respond to your post by stating or thinking to themselves... "Why yes, he's right, Koreans are all emotional on this board and if I find out one of them is indeed Korea, I'd better either avoid them or try not to argue with them." Tough luck then. Because, the only reason I can see for you to post something so ignorant is to either 1) Put down other people or 2) Put yourself above other people. Please clarify where I am being contradictory or not being very clear to you. If I am wrong, let me ask ONE MORE TIME, what is the point of that post? Otherwise, I will assume the rest of my response which you failed to address on your previous response and this one is correct as well. |
Because when discussing things, it's nice to try to talk to people who are, for the most part, rational. Getting all emotional does not help when trying to understand another person's perspective.
This board primarily concerns itself with living and working in Korea. It is a necessary place for foreigners to have in order to exchange information and to sometimes vent. When some Koreans visit the board, they often take away a negative impression (or what they think is an "accurate" view) when really it is merely one side of how a foreigner feels about Korea. When this fact is pointed out, the ones I've encountered became all emotional. Never did they experience life in another country, but rather repeated the "Don't like it go home" mantra.
I tire of your so-called Freudian analysis Psy. I stated my reasons quite clearly as to why I posted time and again. You perhaps weren't around when the boards had emotional, flamebaiting posts made by some Koreans. Generally, this new board has been pretty free of that but sometimes the old board was full of it, okay?
As well, you are free to agree or disagree with my posts. It doesn't change the fact that some Koreans who post get emotional at the slightest insult of their country or how things operate here and seek to lay all of Korea's woes at the feet of the evil foreigner.
CM |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Psy wrote: |
| Psy wrote: |
| I was writing this in the point of view of the recruiters, not teachers. |
I meant employers, not recruiters. |
Please pick one already for murphy's sake.
CM |
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Psy
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Location: Hongdae
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
| Because when discussing things, it's nice to try to talk to people who are, for the most part, rational. Getting all emotional does not help when trying to understand another person's perspective. |
!!!  Which reinforces my point that you believe koreans on this board are irrational and therefore should be avoided, ladeedadeeda...
pointing to previous post.
| Quote: |
| This board primarily concerns itself with living and working in Korea. It is a necessary place for foreigners to have in order to exchange information and to sometimes vent. When some Koreans visit the board, they often take away a negative impression (or what they think is an "accurate" view) when really it is merely one side of how a foreigner feels about Korea. When this fact is pointed out, the ones I've encountered became all emotional. Never did they experience life in another country, but rather repeated the "Don't like it go home" mantra. |
And do you fail to realize that one point of view could in fact be wrong? There are Koreans who get emotional just as there are Westerners, Europeans, and others who do as well. I cannot comprehend why you single out Koreans unless you have something against them. If I was Korean and I stated how Aussies were all emotional and I couldn't have a logical argument with them, what conclusion would you make? And what would kind of opinion would you have about me? That I dislike Aussies? Possibly and understandable. You may be trying to convey an "experience" on this forum, but I see nothing to be gained from such a post. It is offensive.
| Quote: |
This board primarily concerns itself with living and working in Korea. It is a necessary place for foreigners to have in order to exchange information and to sometimes vent. When some Koreans visit the board, they often take away a negative impression (or what they think is an "accurate" view) when really it is merely one side of how a foreigner feels about Korea. When this fact is pointed out, the ones I've encountered became all emotional. Never did they experience life in another country, but rather repeated the "Don't like it go home" mantra.
I tire of your so-called Freudian analysis Psy. I stated my reasons quite clearly as to why I posted time and again. You perhaps weren't around when the boards had emotional, flamebaiting posts made by some Koreans. Generally, this new board has been pretty free of that but sometimes the old board was full of it, okay?
As well, you are free to agree or disagree with my posts. It doesn't change the fact that some Koreans who post get emotional at the slightest insult of their country or how things operate here and seek to lay all of Korea's woes at the feet of the evil foreigner.
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It is not whether I agree or disagree. What you have experienced, is your own experience. I have no problem with you or your other posts. This one was short-sighted. And I can repeat what you stated in your last sentence to just about every homogenous populated country. But you'd just say I'd be clever, wouldn't you?
Moreover, the quotes you either failed to answer or ignored, I'll assume you agree with me, or that I have made a valid point. |
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Psy
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Location: Hongdae
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
| Please pick one already for murphy's sake. |
Yes, usually I make such errors like this "I hate all Koreans"
Oops, I meant to say "I love all Koreans"
Oops, I meant to say "I love all people"
Oops, I meant to say "I hate all people" |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Psy wrote: |
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. If I was Korean and I stated how Aussies were all emotional and I couldn't have a logical argument with them, what conclusion would you make? . |
Your point is not valid. Circus Monkey never said that ALL Koreans were emotional and couldn't argue their way out of a paper bag. He further qualified this by saying "in his experience". What he did say was that in his experience the majority of Koreans get emotional. His experience may not be the same as yours...but it doesn't make it any less valid. How can you say his experience is not right? It wasn't yours, and you don't know anything about it. Arguing over that is being silly.
Now if he had said ALL Koreans are emotional or even that the MAJORITY of Koreans are emotional then you would have a case. But he said "In my experience." Therefore you are arguing about something you know nothing about (his experience). |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Now...I don't have any links to proof this...it just something i came across while reading about the writing styles of western and chinese students...
logical thinking is not as common place in chinese writing...very often they write citing authority figures...if so and so says it is true then it is true...they are looking for a consensus...not to prove a point...
western thinking comes from a very logical background...i am not so sure the chinese thinking and following that...korean thinking have the same grounding in logical arguement.... |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| peppermint wrote: |
| prostitution: "This is what men are like, and its better that they do this than divorce and create fractured family problems " Is that why Korea has the second highest divorce rate in the world? |
That's a very new thing. So you've got not only marriages that fell apart recently that are ending, but marriages that fell apart ten years ago (for example) that are also ending because it only recently became socially acceptable.
After a few more years the rate will dramatically drop as the backlog of failed marriages will be cleared out. |
The problem, for me, is that she immediately sees the men as being married men. Maybe that was not clearly stated in the original question to the mystery woman but I doubt it matters anyway. The essential problem is that you HAVE to get married. |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| peppermint wrote: |
| not according to the Times. |
The Times is wrong.
Or more accurately, they wrote an introductory paragraph that incorrectly summarized what they were trying to report on. Namely for every two marriages last year, there was one divorce. But it's not out one of out every two new marriages, but marriages that ended long ago and are finally being having the divorce occur as it's now socially acceptable. It's a spike, not a trend.
The national average of marriages that have ended in divorce over the last 30 years is around 14% I believe, including spike of recent years. Prior to 1995, the average was around 6%. |
I did not misuderstand it.
It said that for every two marriages there was one divorce regardless of the original marriage date. That is how you compare the rate. |
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