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American geography
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RACETRAITOR



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HapKi wrote:
They are covered in ice, yes.
But the bedrock, mountains, volcanoes, etc. of Antarctica are not frozen.


So since it's so important to you, what is the temperature of the rock underneath the Antarctic's ice? Is it really all that warm?
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jotgarden



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Location: Suwon, South Korea.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RACETRAITOR wrote:
HapKi wrote:
They are covered in ice, yes.
But the bedrock, mountains, volcanoes, etc. of Antarctica are not frozen.


So since it's so important to you, what is the temperature of the rock underneath the Antarctic's ice? Is it really all that warm?


More important, can you prove it's not warm?
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can prove it IS warm 'in' Antarctica...with that infalliable font of all wisdom, wikipedia.

The earth's crust is cold on the very top, but if you dig down even a single kilometer, it starts getting hot. See:
"The temperature of the crust increases with depth, reaching values typically in the range from about 200 �C (400 �F) to 400 �C (800 �F) at the boundary with the underlying mantle...The temperature increases by as much as 30�C (about 50�F) for every kilometer locally in the upper part of the crust, but the geothermal gradient is smaller in deeper crust."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crust_(geology)

The continental crust is usually about 30 or 40 km thick. So, if you dug down 2000 meters, you'd still be technically 'in' Antarctica, and it would be really really hot, just like everywhere else on Earth, if you're 2 km underground. Less hot than in other places, of course; but how much would the surface temperature affect it? I wonder...

Interesting side note: the deepest mine on Earth is only 3.5 km deep, and the temperature at the bottom is aobut 70 degrees celsius.

In the coldest parts of earth, and the thickest parts of the crust, I wonder how far you'd have to dig down before you started to cook?


Last edited by blurgalurgalurga on Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RACETRAITOR



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blurgalurgalurga wrote:
I can prove it IS warm 'in' Antarctica...with that infalliable font of all wisdom, wikipedia.

The earth's crust is cold on the very top, but if you dig down even a single kilometer, it starts getting hot. See:
"The temperature of the crust increases with depth, reaching values typically in the range from about 200 �C (400 �F) to 400 �C (800 �F) at the boundary with the underlying mantle...The temperature increases by as much as 30�C (about 50�F) for every kilometer locally in the upper part of the crust, but the geothermal gradient is smaller in deeper crust."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crust_(geology)

The continental crust is usually about 30 or 40 km thick. So, if you dug down 2000 meters, you'd still be technically 'in' Antarctica, and it would be really really hot, just like everywhere else on Earth, if you're 2 km underground.

Interesting side note: the deepest mine on Earth is only 3.5 km deep, and the temperature at the bottom is aobut 70 degrees celsius.


So then there truly is no cold place in the world, right?

Is this what American kids are taught? "Antarctica is actually a very hot place, despite the penguins and the ice, because if you dig down, it would be very hot." And that of course also means that most glaciers are sitting on hot rock.

This seems like a very big, very pointless dodge.


Last edited by RACETRAITOR on Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beats me, I'm Canadian.

I'm just playing semantic horse-hockey with the word 'in,' though. Obviously it's cold as a witch's browneye at the South Pole, everybody knows that.

And, yes, it's a big pointless dodge.

The OP's co-worker is clearly very stupid, and probably believes in Pellucidar, too.
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cruisemonkey



Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HapKi wrote:
They are covered in ice, yes.
But the bedrock, mountains, volcanoes, etc. of Antarctica are not frozen.


I've actually BEEN to Antarctica and can assure you the VAST majority of the bedrock, mountains, and yes... even the volcanos (most are extinct) of Antarctica are at a temperature well below 0 degrees centigrade. There are places on the surface where liquid water exists in the summer (December, January and February) but in most of those, if you dig down more than 2' you will hit permafrost.

Your statement is ludicrous. You and the OP's co-worker should start a club! Wink
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HapKi



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Location: TALL BUILDING-SEOUL

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason that Antarctica is a continent (and the Arctic is not) is that under all that ice, the Antarctic has ground, land, rock, bedrock, whatever you want to call it. That is why all the research will say "the ice covering Antarctica" and so forth. The land continent has lakes, rivers, rocks, gravel, soil, and so on. The lakes are not frozen. The rivers are not frozen. The soil is not frozen. And this is all visible at the surface in different parts of the land. (Go underground and it tends to get warmer, as someone pointed out.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Dry_Valleys

As well, the mountains and active volcanoes I've mentioned since page one. Antarctica is full of volcanic rocks of many kinds, and has shown volcanic activity for a long, long time. Mount Erebus is part of the Pacific Ring of Fire, and is one of a few active volcanoes to this day. It has a flowing lava lake.
http://www.swisseduc.ch/glaciers/earth_icy_planet/glaciers09-en.html?id=12

Yes, Antarctica is frozen (a crust covering of ice miles thick). Yes, it's very cold. All this is obvious and all is a part of your 'superior' education systems. I seem to be one of the few, however, that can accept that it can be two things at once. Ice cold and molten lava fricken hot. I've proven my point.
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RACETRAITOR



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do know that volcanic rock can cool down, don't you?
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, then, if the south pole is hot, then the north pole is too.
No, not the stripey pole stuck into the ice, I'm talking about the exact spot directly beneath, on the ocean floor.
If you were to dig down, you see...it'd be really hot, eventually. In fact it'd be HOTTER than at the south pole, because you'd not need to dig as far, because the oceanic crust is usually thinner than the continental one.
Right?
Surprised
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HapKi



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Location: TALL BUILDING-SEOUL

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course it can cool down. When it starts flowing as lava when exposed to air. But the lava pool in the picture is constantly hot. The magma underground which supplies it proves my point that Antarctica has veins of it in parts of its landmass. Not only is Antarctica non-frozen in parts, its molten.
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Cheonmunka



Joined: 04 Jun 2004

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also very windy.

I'd imagine the water temp below the ice of the north would be warmer than the rock under the ice of Antarctica. It is fed and replenished by ocean currents after all.

If you are not doing something with the information, is it even relevant at all to be arguing about? There are many other things to be bother by.
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HapKi



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Location: TALL BUILDING-SEOUL

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick note to the OP, The Evil Penguin.
I can't decide which is worse. That you profess to know so much about Antarctica, but then can't spell 'Antarctica.' Or the fact that you have continuously berated the American education system, and can't spell 'Antarctica." I mean, once I can understand, but 4 times? Come on. Maybe ponder that a bit with your morning coffee, ok?

Quote:
The fact remains, I can't imagine any other supposedly educated nationality on the planet letting anybody finish elementary school without knowing basic geography and little things like 'how weather works'. What does weather have to do with frozen polar regions? As it turns out.... a great deal. Of course coming from the southern hemisphere, aussies and kiwis (and south africans, argentinians and chillians (?) for that matter) are more familiar with antartica than northern dwellers. Afterall, the area is on our doorstep.
But even so..... bloody hell... Every NZ and aussie kid knows there are two frozen polar regions. (I have to admit however, as a kid i always secretly thought the artic was cooler than the antartic (as in 'more special'- not temperature wise) because you get polar bears there and it's also where santa lives).

Just for a challenge Hapki, how about you and I take a nice leisurely stroll down to antartica. Maybe just a lap or two. You wear your bikini and bring your beach towel and shovel (afterall, its land underneath... maybe a volcano or two, you'll be ok) and i'll wear my polar suit with furlined Daves Cafe thermal boxer shorts). See who lasts remains alive the longest. Yes there are volcanoes down there. By memory only one active. I might be wrong. I've seen photos of one anyway in the national geographic. Apart from within the cauldra itself... its covered in ice. Fancy that.

I didn't mean to be outright knocking the US again... (although US baiting is kinda fun... you always get a reaction). I've met quite a few decent specimens of humanity from that part of the world. But really, is there any other country that can produce university graduates (with a teaching degree and MBA no less) without even a basic grasp of 'how the world works'?.
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aw..the sweet sound of someone defending his country to the last. I have a 7am class that I hate..I wind them up with this kind of stuff too.
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ReeseDog



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HapKi wrote:
That so many people automatically jump on here and call Americans 'idiots' is what really pisses me off.


Relax, man. They hate us 'cause they ain't us.
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HapKi wrote:
That so many people automatically jump on here and call Americans 'idiots' is what really pisses me off.


To be fair, most people are calling you the idiot for attempting to defend a clear cut case of stupidity because you don't agree with the OPs follow-up bad generalization.

(Has anyone besides the OP said they think all Americans are idiots?)
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