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Why should I respect these oppressive religions?
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bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:17 am Post subject:

Quote:

Wrong. The Koran, just like the Bible, can and is interpreted just about anyway you like.

If Islam can and is interpreted just about 'any way you like' (something that is actually considered heresy by all 4 schools of Sunni Islam and also Shia Islam) then why is their so little of this diverse thought in the Islamic world?

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:27 am Post subject:

Quote:

Life will go on, as it ever does, and one day Pakistanis will be forgotten and we'll have a new 'threat' for the papers to get the mob worked up over. Yes, there are some problems with some muslims, but they are not the existential threat of your wild exaggerations

The problem is not Pakistanis per se, but a growing unassimilable Muslim population (including Pakistanis) that is going to cause increasing problems in our society. Our flawed immigration policy, informed by the kind of idiotic multiculturalism you advocate, is leading to the creation of mini-Belfasts all over the UK.

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:49 am Post subject:

In somewhat-related news: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29207954/ And the beat goes on....

RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

No. What you forget is that the UK is London surrounded by a very drunk, belligerent and angry Mississippi.

The muslim population is growing TEN TIMES the rate of the kafir. You claim to understand maths. This isn't a small thing. The demographic future of the UK is muslim. The assumption that this population replacement will occur without Mississippi erupting, is naive.

Don't you mean a belligerent and angry Canada? Most people in Mississippi are tolerant now.

A few years ago, I had a Muslim girlfriend and she was great. She wasn't anything like some of the propaganda you see on TV. She had dyed-blonde hair and worked for an international cosmetics company. The people in her hometown, Istanbul, were extremely friendly and hospitable when I was there. The only place I've been where the people are as friendly is rural Vietnam. I think if you were to spend some time around Muslims, you'd find that they don't hate you as badly as you hate them. Just because they believe in fairy tale stuff, it doesn't make them bad people. To me, they just seem similar to my Christian relatives and the rest of the people in my hometown in Tennessee.

What do you think a lot of South Koreans thought about you when you lived there?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

Wrong. The Koran, just like the Bible, can and is interpreted just about anyway you like.

Because there is diverse thought. Spend some time living and travelling with muslims instead of surfing anti-muslim websites, and you might discover that for yourself. Or alternatively, spend time finding English language blogs from the Middle East, and that may give you a window into muslim minds that arent' consumed with thoughts of Jihad and hatred of Dhimmi.

In some countries there is extreme censorship, and only one official perspective prevails, but that doesn't mean that all the citizens of that country are one homogenous mass.

I"ve discussed some of the contents of the Koran with muslim believers (as well as agnostic muslims) and usually they do not take it literally. I clearly remember a visiting student from Oman saying, "Look, a lot of that stuff was relevant for the Prophet's time, and applied to those difficult circumstances, but we should not follow some of it now." A Libyan friend has often said stuff along those lines. There are some people on the forum who have claimed to have read the Koran, but they appear to be reading it in the same fundamentalist way that Osama Bin Laden reads it. Most muslims don't follow the Koran to the letter.

To paraphrase Jesus: That's focusing too much on the letter of the law, at the expense of the spirit of the law.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject:

RJjr wrote:

I think if you were to spend some time around Muslims, you'd find that they don't hate you as badly as you hate them.

Please.

This thread started out as a question. "Why should I be tolerant of religions", specifically islam. I don't care about individual muslms but the extent to which those nations that have large muslim populations must reorganize to pacify the obedients. This topic is firmly linked with the reality of mass muslim immigration and is a discussion that is needed.

asylum seeker

Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

asylum seeker wrote:

Funny how some feminists who would stand up for women's rights normally are so willing to give Muslims a free pass. It is so obvious that in this day and age the worst, institutionalized mistreatment of and discrimination against women is being done by Muslims in the name of Islam yet because of the hard-left's fawning obsequiousness in the name of cultural relativism Islam is not criticized and is even defended.

Can you name one of these feminists that gives muslims a free pass on domestic violence, and perhaps link me to one of their articles on the topic? I've had a very hard time believing this, although it is a criticism I've seen levelled at feminists before. If you can prove to me that this is not some urban myth propogated by columnists at worthless news rags such as The Daily Mail, I'd be very interested. Personally I've never met a feminist who said the equivalant of "While domestic violence is generally very wrong, it is fine when perpetrated by muslims, because that is their culture."

If you can find me one of these feminists, that would be very interesting.

Why do you try to pretend that this discussion is only about domestic violence. Let's look at the other ways Muslim countries discriminate against women:

The forced use of the burqa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

Gang-rape "honour" punishments.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4322021.stm

General discrimination in the most Muslim of Muslim countries:

Quote:

Main article: Women's rights in Saudi Arabia

Saudi women face severe discrimination in many aspects of their lives, including education, employment, and the justice system and are clearly regarded as inferior to men. Although they make up 70% of those enrolled in universities, women make up just 5% of the workforce in Saudi Arabia,[7] the lowest proportion in the world.

The treatment of women has been referred to as "gender apartheid."[8][9][10] Implementation of a government resolution supporting expanded employment opportunities for women met resistance from within the labor ministry,[11] from the religious police,[12] and from the male citizenry.[13]

These institutions and individuals generally claim that according to Sharia a woman's place is in the home caring for her husband and family. It is a country where culture and religion make women live mostly restricted segregated lives. There is also segregation inside their own homes as some rooms have separate entrances for men and women. [14]

In the legal system, women face discrimination. An example of this is the requirements for testifying in criminal proceedings; The witness must be deemed sane, the age of an adult, and a Muslim. Non-Muslims may not testify in criminal court. Women may not testify unless it is a personal matter that did not occur in the sight of men. The testimony of a woman is not regarded as fact but as presumption. The reasons women are forbidden to testify in proceedings are (quote):[15][16]

1. Women are much more emotional than men and will, as a result of their emotions, distort their testimony.
2. Women do not participate in public life, so they will not be capable of understanding what they observe.
3. Women are dominated completely by men, who by the grace of God are deemed superior; therefore, women will give testimony according to what the last man told them.
4. Women are forgetful, and their testimony cannot be considered reliable.

As a result of these laws women are vulnerable in cases of assault and/or rape, as their testimony is treated as a presumption, while that of their attackers is accepted as fact. In some cases, victims of sexual assault are punished on the grounds that they should not be alone with unrelated males. It happened recently when a woman, victim of a gang rape, was sentenced by a Saudi court to six months in prison and 200 lashes for violating laws on segregation of the sexes, as she was in an unrelated man's car at the time of the attack.[17]

This case attracted the attention of the UN which expressed its concerns regarding the social attitudes and the system of male guardianship which deter women from reporting crimes and lead to a patriarchal system. Women are therefore prevented from escaping abusive environments because of their lack of autonomy and economic independence, practices surrounding divorce and child custody, the absence of a law criminalizing violence against women, and inconsistencies in the application of laws and procedures.[18]

Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads in large cities. However, some do so on rural roads illegally.[citation needed] Women are allowed to fly aircraft, though they must be chauffeured to the airport.[19]

Women's rights are at the heart of calls for reform in Saudi Arabia - calls that are challenging the kingdom's political status quo[14] and the pressure from Western governments and from institutions such as the UN helps speed up the process. Local and international women's groups are also pushing governments to respond, taking advantage of the fact that some rulers are eager to project a more progressive image to the West.

The presence of powerful businesswomen�still a rare breed�in some of these groups helps get them heard.[17] Prior to 2008, women were not allowed to enter hotels and furnished apartments without a chaperon or mahram. With a 2008 Royal Decree, however, the only requirement needed to allow women to enter hotels are their national ID cards, and the hotel must inform the nearest police station of their room reservation and length of stay.[20]

Encouraged by the recent advances in women's rights, advocates for the right of women to drive in Saudi Arabia - the only country in the world that prohibits female drivers � have collected more than 3,000 signatures hoping that the driving ban will also be lifted this year (2008) by King Abdullah. But the chances for this to happen are still small in Saudi Arabia's deeply religious and patriarchal society, where many believe that allowing women the right to drive could lead to Western-style openness and an erosion of traditional values.[21]

According to the CIA world factbook, 70.8% of females are literate, in comparison to 84.7% literacy rates in males.[22]

Saudi Arabia is one of the few countries in the 2008 Olympics without a female delegation - women's sports are, in principle, banned; although some teams do exist.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Women.27s_rights

My statement about feminists was a jab at people like you who are so quick to jump to the defense of Islam and ignore the kind of thing that goes on in its name.

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject:

Quote:

A few years ago, I had a Muslim girlfriend and she was great.

I'm sure she was. That tells us nothing in regards to the folly of allowing millions of Muslims into Europe every year and the effects this will have on social harmony in years to come.

RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject:

But how about me strutting around in Turkey with long hair and earrings? You guys make it sound like it was as perilous as a black guy hanging out at a Ku Klux Klan rally. You've watched too much TV. Go out and live a little. I'm not saying there won't be total harmony in Europe, especially since it looks like there are riots these days in even the all white parts of Europe. History repeats itself and it hasn't been kind to non-Christians in Europe. Still, if Muslims or Jews want to live in Europe or anywhere else, I don't see how that is different than when we in this forum get visas to live and work in Asia. It seems hypocritical for people this website, of all of the ones on the internet, to criticize those who move to another culture to work and live. Not that I agree with the people on Stormfront.org, but at least they seem to practice what they preach and stay home.

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:12 am Post subject:

Quote:

But how about me strutting around in Turkey with long hair and earrings? You guys make it sound like it was as perilous as a black guy hanging out at a Ku Klux Klan rally. You've watched too much TV. Go out and live a little.

I never said going to travel in a Muslim country was necessarily dangerous, and I have done it myself. My point, which I doubt you understand, is that large scale Muslim immigration, leading to large Muslim minority populations, is a recipe for ethnic strife and disaster. Unless of course, you welcome the idea of stable, tolerant Netherlands resembling Lebanon in fifty years time.

Quote:

Still, if Muslims or Jews want to live in Europe or anywhere else, I don't see how that is different than when we in this forum get visas to live and work in Asia

I don't even know why you are bringing Jews into the equation, since they are not the issue here, have lived in European countries in large numbers for hundreds of years, and do not cause any of the problems caused by Muslims in European countries. Secondly, if you cannot see the difference between granting temporary work visas to a few thousand Europeans, who usually have no chance of residency or citizenship, with the mass immigration and settling of millions of Muslims, you're obviously not very bright.

RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:56 am Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

My point, which I doubt you understand, is that large scale Muslim immigration, leading to large Muslim minority populations, is a recipe for ethnic strife and disaster. Unless of course, you welcome the idea of stable, tolerant Netherlands resembling Lebanon in fifty years time.

Rotterdam, the Netherlands
May 1940

http://andreiacosta.nl/weblog/rotterdam1940.jpg

By 1945, most cities in Germany looked even worse. Germany had to bring in hundreds of thousands of workers from Turkey to put the place back together after the Europeans had destroyed each others' cities and turned so many of the men (and women) into corpses and cripples.

bigverne wrote:

They're part of the equation because this isn't the first time Europeans have called people of another religion a bunch of troublemakers.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Holocaust/Mizocz.jpg

bigverne wrote:

Secondly, if you cannot see the difference between granting temporary work visas to a few thousand Europeans, who usually have no chance of residency or citizenship, with the mass immigration and settling of millions of Muslims, you're obviously not very bright.

That still doesn't change the fact that a lot of Koreans consider you, bigverne, to have drug problems, pedophile tendencies, and low work qualifications. Yet, you went to the immigration office and got an alien residency card, right?

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:40 am Post subject:

Quote:

I really don't see your point. I came to work (not as an English teacher by the way) in a country legally and now am part of a tiny minority of Westerners living here, but according to your logic, because I oppose mass Muslim immigration to Europe I am somehow a hypocrite. Perhaps, if I opposed Korean immigration, or if I was living in a Muslim country you might have a point. By the way, Korean immigration is extremely strict and is designed specifically to keep the non-Korean presence at a minimum. Koreans have no time for multiculturalism and that is their perogative. It is in stark contrast to our immigration policy, and perhaps we could learn something from them.

As for your point regarding Jews, your attempts to compare the awful discrimination and hatred faced by them to Muslims is ridiculous and pathetic. Jews were almost wiped off the continent, where they had lived peacefully for centuries and had contributed greatly to the culture of the continent. So called 'Islamophobia' on the other hand has come about because of Islamic terrorism, assasinations, rioting, criminality, and the lack of assimilation and integration on the part of Muslims. And ironically anti-semitic attacks on Jews are now increasing rapidly due to the increased presence of you-know-who.

asylum seeker

Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:34 am Post subject:

RJjr wrote:

Turkey is one of the most secular of Muslim countries. The more strictly Muslim the country is the more oppressive they tend to be (Saudi Arabia etc.). My aunt worked in Saudi Arabia as a nurse and if a woman dared not wear a burqa in public she would be flogged by the religious police.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:33 am Post subject:

From the WSJ:

Quote:

For liberals, the issue is straightforward. If routine mockery of Christianity and abuse of its symbols, both in the U.S. and Europe, is protected speech, why shouldn't the same standard apply to the mockery of Islam? And if the difference in these cases is that mockery of Islam has the tendency to lead to riots, death threats and murder, should committed Christians now seek a kind of parity with Islamists by resorting to violent tactics to express their sense of religious injury?

RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:38 am Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

I really don't see your point. I came to work (not as an English teacher by the way) in a country legally and now am part of a tiny minority of Westerners living here

That is my point. Despite carrying a lot of negative sterotypes, you disregard the Koreans that see your presence as polluting the Korean peninsula and choose to live there anyway. A lot of Koreans look at the Muslims in Korea the same way you look at the Muslims in your country. But they look at you the same way they look at the Muslims: just another stinking waygook.

bigverne wrote:

As for your point regarding Jews, your attempts to compare the awful discrimination and hatred faced by them to Muslims is ridiculous and pathetic.

What is pathetic is how Jews have been treated, and at times are still treated, by Europeans.

bigverne wrote:

Jews were almost wiped off the continent

Surely not by Europeans. They can do no wrong...

bigverne wrote:

So called 'Islamophobia' on the other hand has come about because of Islamic terrorism, assasinations, rioting, criminality, and the lack of assimilation and integration on the part of Muslims.

Based on the behavior of the "good" Europeans, it looks like they've assimilated. Acid attacks, putting peoples eyes out, assaulting police, vandalism, rioting, looting, arson, flipping over a van with the driver still behind the wheel, whooping the shit out of a car with 2x4s with the car alarm wailing. Laughing

Most of the Europeans seem to be rioting about things that matter, except for the British rioting over ball games. Laughing

Greece 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8QVQLTGoSo&feature=related

Iceland 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UABxqNIuyYc

Lithuania 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh2yh-_05bk&feature=related

Latvia 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06tFHAuff8k&feature=related

France 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYn7TvVwC78

Spain, December 2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3Ci8p9WTIo

Bulgaria 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMR1zu2G5hw

British, various years, ongoing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW23lUV6oFk

Northern Ireland looking like Chechnya, various years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd1pEnPhmfg&feature=related

bigverne wrote:

And ironically anti-semitic attacks on Jews are now increasing rapidly due to the increased presence of you-know-who.

European borrowers who won't pay their loans, crash their economies as a result, and blame it all on "Jewish" lenders.

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