|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: |
 |
|
[quote="Captain Corea"]
| Quote: |
| Sorry Joo, I thin there's been a misunderstanding. I was looking for you to backup your claims about posters on here. |
You also asked for sites.
But it would be a lot of work to go through so many comments looking for some words wouldn't.
Anyway the articles I put up show what was going on before Bush was president.
| Quote: |
I was curious about two things mainly
1. Was there a poster (or a number of posters) here that seriously proposed that 'everything would be ok once Bush was out.
and
2. Did any other serious source actually say that as well.
And other than that really odd website about Obama being a god that Gopher linked to, I have yet to really see either of you back up that initial claim - that people (and posters here) have said that everything will be ok if Bush is gone. |
| Quote: |
I have yet to read a serious post on here claiming that Obama will right all wrongs and that nothing bad will happen in his presidency.
Not really wanting to hijack this thread... but I'd love to see which posters claimed that.
Perhaps you and/or Joo could link it for me? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gopher wrote of the Russians and Castro:
| Quote: |
| They remained more or less as hostile to one another as Moscow and Beijing (or, at another level, Moscow-Hanoi vs. Beijing-Phnom Penh). |
I dunno, Goph. While I'm sure that there was often a lot of tension between the USSR and Cuba(and even outright disagreements in policy, as you reference), I think most observers would still place Castro within the Soviet-allied bloc during the Cold War. Your comparison with Hanoi vs. Phnom Penh strikes me as particularly hyperbolic, since Vietnam actually invaded Cambodia to topple the Khmer Rouge and put in a puppet regime. I don't think anything close to that took place between Russia and Cuba.
And if Cuba and the USSR ever gave public speeches declaring each other to be the enemy of the international prloetariat, as China and the USSR used to do to each other, I have yet to hear about it.
But I do take the point that international blocs are not a monolith. I wasn't aware that the Russians and the Cubans were backing opposite sides in Chile. I do remember hearing that Moscow was not all that enthused about Castro's support for the Sandinistas. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| I was curious about two things mainly... |
I question your sincerity here. I think you are not "curious" at all. I think you want to deny that people were saying that just like some here want to apologize for and/or deny M. Ahmadinejad's comments on Israel, the Holocaust, and his govt's nuclear weapons program.
The fact of the matter is, you were not paying attention during the primaries and the election to what these people were saying. You are also too lazy to go back and read these threads. So you demand that Joo and I function as Nowhere Man-style archivists and tell you who exactly said what and link the thread.
I imagine we could establish a "for-the-record" sticky to placate people like you. But something tells me that that would not remove that chip you carry around on your shoulder, either... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hey Captain, take a look at Pluto's avatar. They poster who created this thread. Why do you think he chose that particular avatar and who do you think he is responding to?
| On the other hand wrote: |
| I dunno, Goph. While I'm sure that there was often a lot of tension between the USSR and Cuba... |
Are you merely thinking out loud here? What exactly have you read on Soviet-Cuban relations?
| On the other hand wrote: |
| ...most observers would still place Castro within the Soviet-allied bloc during the Cold War. |
Mostly. Who here said otherwise? On the surface, allies; under the surface, competitors, not always on friendly terms. Definitely at odds in Chile and later Central America. And do not forget Africa.
On the same side when it came to opposing Yankees. Very much at odds re: how to make revolution, and this from day one.
| On the other hand wrote: |
| And if Cuba and the USSR ever gave public speeches declaring each other to be the enemy of the international prloetariat, as China and the USSR used to do to each other, I have yet to hear about it. |
But I never claimed this, either.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| I dunno, Goph. While I'm sure that there was often a lot of tension between the USSR and Cuba... |
Are you merely thinking out loud here? What exactly have you read on Soviet-Cuban relations?
| On the other hand wrote: |
| ...most observers would still place Castro within the Soviet-allied bloc during the Cold War. |
Mostly. Who here said otherwise? On the surface, allies; under the surface, competitors, not always on friendly terms. Definitely at odds in Chile and later Central America.
| On the other hand wrote: |
| And if Cuba and the USSR ever gave public speeches declaring each other to be the enemy of the international prloetariat, as China and the USSR used to do to each other, I have yet to hear about it. |
But I never claimed this, either. |
Well, not directly, but you compared Cuba vs. Russia to China vs. Russia. Which I would take to imply that you think that Castro and the Moscow boys WERE, in fact, denouncing each other and supporting military attacks against each other's proxies. Because that is what happened during the Sino-Soviet split.
(Edit: And no, I don't think you really believe that, it's just that your comparison left you open to misinterpretation.)
| Quote: |
On the other hand wrote:
I dunno, Goph. While I'm sure that there was often a lot of tension between the USSR and Cuba...
Are you merely thinking out loud here? What exactly have you read on Soviet-Cuban relations?
|
Not much. I was basically just conceding your point when I wrote that, because you have a certain expertise in the area, and I know that, as a rule, alliances are not as ironclad as is often assumed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
The alliance held as far as the Soviets' getting a base in Latin America and the Caribbean, the heart of the American sphere-of-influence, and the Cubans' getting money, arms, and a superpower backer. Be advised that the Soviets considered this a net liability on their economy. Sugar did not get them much. The Cubans and their imitators held unrealistic expectations re: what Moscow would do for them once they fielded a dozen guerrillas in the mountains. And Moscow wanted no more Cubas in the hemisphere. The Cubans on the other hand, wanted many more Cubas throughout the Third World.
You need to look at the Latin American left, on the ground, including all of its factions, how they were at each other's throats (this really began postwar, before the Cuban Revolution, but Castro exacerbated it after 1959), and who was backing, advising, and funding them, too. The best case I can think of at the moment is the Chilean one: Moscow and the PCCh, on the one hand, and Havana and the Socialists, the MIR, and of course, S. Allende's "Group of Personal Friends," on the other. Why did Moscow decline to contribute money to Allende's campaign in 1970? Why was L. Corvalan utterly dismissing the MIR and co. as "soda fountain revolutionaries?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
On the Other Hand, you might be interested to read this. You can get it online and it is not a book that will make demands on your time. You could read this in an hour or so, if interested in seeing a taste of what I am describing.
I may have linked this before. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, I don't doubt any of that. One question...
| Quote: |
| Why was L. Corvalan utterly dismissing the MIR and co. as "soda fountain revolutionaries?" |
What exactly is the phrase "soda fountain revolutionaries" meant to imply? Is it something like "armchair quarterback", ie. someone whose commitment to a party or cause is not based on any practical experience? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks for the book reference. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Why was L. Corvalan utterly dismissing the MIR and co. as "soda fountain revolutionaries?" |
What exactly is the phrase "soda fountain revolutionaries" meant to imply? Is it something like "armchair quarterback", ie. someone whose commitment to a party or cause is not based on any practical experience? |
Dangerous children, playing "revolutionary" in the streets -- and getting the grownups in trouble. They should go to their rooms and speak when spoken to.
Do not forget just how close was the relationship between L. Corvalan and Moscow. They traded for him after the coup and got him out. KGB wanted to mount an airborne (helicopter) attack to rescue him -- but the Politburo thought that was crazy. He was one of their best, most stable and professional men in Latin America, in fact. I do not believe his memoirs are available in English unfortunately. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Dangerous children, playing "revolutionary" in the streets -- and getting the grownups in trouble. They should go to their rooms and speak when spoken to.
|
As James Cross said about the people who kidnapped him: "A bunch of kids trying to start a revolution".
The October Crisis |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Castro, while "inspecting" the guns, saw one tracking a U-2. He asked the Soviet officer which button fired the missile. And the officer showed him. Then he said "this one?" and he pressed it and thus shot down the U-2, hoping to provoke the Third World War. |
.... Really? Can't be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| I was curious about two things mainly... |
I question your sincerity here. I think you are not "curious" at all. I think you want to deny that people were saying that just like some here want to apologize for and/or deny M. Ahmadinejad's comments on Israel, the Holocaust, and his govt's nuclear weapons program.
The fact of the matter is, you were not paying attention during the primaries and the election to what these people were saying. You are also too lazy to go back and read these threads. So you demand that Joo and I function as Nowhere Man-style archivists and tell you who exactly said what and link the thread.
I imagine we could establish a "for-the-record" sticky to placate people like you. But something tells me that that would not remove that chip you carry around on your shoulder, either... |
Wow, you really do have it bad, don't you.
His comment struck me as odd. I did read a lot of posts on here at that time, and don't recall anything close to what he had said - so I asked him about it.
If you have any actual proof that I didn't mean what I.... oh, wait. You seem much bigger into personal insults and name calling than actually serving up proof - why would I even bother asking.
FYI Gopher, this forum isn't your personal playground. You don't get to personally attack people just because they ask a question.
Get over yourself. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blade wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Look everyone. H. Chavez just won the election that will enable him to run again in 2012, thus extending his rule to at least 2018, if not indefinitely...
| Quote: |
People voting "no" said [H.] Chavez already has far too much power, with the courts, the legislature and the election council all under his influence. Removing the 12-year presidential term limit he pushed through in a 1999 referendum, they said, would make him unstoppable.
"If he wins he'll be unleashed and he'll make us like Cuba, because that's what he really wants," said Adriana Hernandez, a 19-year-old engineering student. "He'll create laws by decree, and go after private property..." |
Imagine that. |
Well done to Chavez and thanks be to god the Venezuelan people didn't all let themselves be influenced by the usual right wing fear mongering propaganda. |
You mean anyone who voted against Chavez was influenced by the usual "right wing fear mongering propaganda".
Chavez couldn't have said it any better himself.
I am so glad you made this post. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
