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bjonothan
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: All over the place
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 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| exit86 wrote: |
Yeah, you will find that the Korean language is far far less
unpredictable and varied than the English language as used
by Koreans.
Example: Go on the subway on a freezing-ass cold winter day.
Listen.
You'll hear the same verb "춥다" repeated over and over and over--
something like this:
"Wow! It is cold!"
"I'm cold"
"Cold!"
"Cold, eh?'
"Very cold!"
In English conversation, we insist upon varying our expressions:
"I'm freezing my nuts off!"
"It is colder than a well-diggers butt!"
"Shit, why the hell is it so f'ing cold?"
"My ass is frozen"
"Brrrrrrrrrrrrr"
I think this is one reason Koreans in particular have a difficult time
with English; it is an unpredictable language where speakers
use different types of terminology for the expression of--not only--feelings/sensations, but also for an expression of one's personality. |
Nice post. I never thought too much about that before.
To the OP, most Koreans will give you retarded answers about their language. Find one good person and just learn from them. |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| exit86 wrote: |
Yeah, you will find that the Korean language is far far less
unpredictable and varied than the English language as used
by Koreans.
Example: Go on the subway on a freezing-ass cold winter day.
Listen.
You'll hear the same verb "춥다" repeated over and over and over--
something like this:
"Wow! It is cold!"
"I'm cold"
"Cold!"
"Cold, eh?'
"Very cold!"
In English conversation, we insist upon varying our expressions:
"I'm freezing my nuts off!"
"It is colder than a well-diggers butt!"
"Shit, why the hell is it so f'ing cold?"
"My ass is frozen"
"Brrrrrrrrrrrrr"
I think this is one reason Koreans in particular have a difficult time
with English; it is an unpredictable language where speakers
use different types of terminology for the expression of--not only--feelings/sensations, but also for an expression of one's personality. |
In a long winded way, what you are trying to say is that English is far more idiomatic than Korean. |
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kingplaya4
Joined: 14 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| For any formal or semi-formal situation (basically whenever you're not talking to a close friend) they weren't lying to you, although anyong hasheemnikga is used in very formal situations. I'm not 100% sure if there aren't words for good morning etc, but if there are they are rarely used. |
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samd
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| samd wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| It's my favorite 욕. Sue me. |
You remind me of my immature students who wander around muttering "*beep*" under their breath and then bursting into giggles. |
You remind me of an old woman, clutching her pearls. In perpetuity. |
Nice.  |
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exit86
Joined: 17 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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My earlier point (using silly examples) was not that the Korean
language lacks a variety of expressions, but that such a variety of expressions are infrequently employed in common parlance.
Many regions have different expressions associated directly with them; but, in a land where most folks outside of Seoul are ashamed of their home region, many people tend to omit such verbal idiosyncrasies; and, further, in a culture replete with formalized social situations/interactions, there is a distinct tendency to use a (culturally) predetermined
set of terms or expressions.
(This ain't my theory folks. Read up on Korean liguistics now and then and you'll see what I am talking about.) |
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Straphanger
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Location: Chilgok, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| exit86 wrote: |
| (This ain't my theory folks. Read up on Korean liguistics now and then and you'll see what I am talking about.) |
That would be quite simple if you weren't so full of shit. And it's spelled linguistics. |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| exit86 wrote: |
My earlier point (using silly examples) was not that the Korean
language lacks a variety of expressions, but that such a variety of expressions are infrequently employed in common parlance.
Many regions have different expressions associated directly with them; but, in a land where most folks outside of Seoul are ashamed of their home region, many people tend to omit such verbal idiosyncrasies; and, further, in a culture replete with formalized social situations/interactions, there is a distinct tendency to use a (culturally) predetermined
set of terms or expressions.
(This ain't my theory folks. Read up on Korean liguistics now and then and you'll see what I am talking about.) |
You are really just saying that Korean is not as idiomatic as English; you seem to be under the impression that this is a profound and surprising observation, but it's a pretty cursory one, especially when made in a forum filled with language teachers (hence some of the nasty replies that I don't think you deserve.) |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| hugekebab wrote: |
| exit86 wrote: |
My earlier point (using silly examples) was not that the Korean
language lacks a variety of expressions, but that such a variety of expressions are infrequently employed in common parlance.
Many regions have different expressions associated directly with them; but, in a land where most folks outside of Seoul are ashamed of their home region, many people tend to omit such verbal idiosyncrasies; and, further, in a culture replete with formalized social situations/interactions, there is a distinct tendency to use a (culturally) predetermined
set of terms or expressions.
(This ain't my theory folks. Read up on Korean liguistics now and then and you'll see what I am talking about.) |
You are really just saying that Korean is not as idiomatic as English; you seem to be under the impression that this is a profound and surprising observation, but it's a pretty cursory one, especially when made in a forum filled with language teachers (hence some of the nasty replies that I don't think you deserve.) |
Funny, if you ask a room full of Koreans - Koreans who don't speak English fluently that is - they'll tell you Korean has so many more words and expressions for different things than English. And they'll be just as wrong as you lot, fluent bilinguals and language experts that you all are. |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| hugekebab wrote: |
| exit86 wrote: |
My earlier point (using silly examples) was not that the Korean
language lacks a variety of expressions, but that such a variety of expressions are infrequently employed in common parlance.
Many regions have different expressions associated directly with them; but, in a land where most folks outside of Seoul are ashamed of their home region, many people tend to omit such verbal idiosyncrasies; and, further, in a culture replete with formalized social situations/interactions, there is a distinct tendency to use a (culturally) predetermined
set of terms or expressions.
(This ain't my theory folks. Read up on Korean liguistics now and then and you'll see what I am talking about.) |
You are really just saying that Korean is not as idiomatic as English; you seem to be under the impression that this is a profound and surprising observation, but it's a pretty cursory one, especially when made in a forum filled with language teachers (hence some of the nasty replies that I don't think you deserve.) |
Funny, if you ask a room full of Koreans - Koreans who don't speak English fluently that is - they'll tell you Korean has so many more words and expressions for different things than English. And they'll be just as wrong as you lot, fluent bilinguals and language experts that you all are. |
English does have a well deserved reputation for having a fearsome lexicon and variation due to the stupendous amount of authors who have contributed to it over the ages as well as its widespread use as a trading/colonial language. The fact that it is comprised of Latin/Latin based languages, Ancient Greek (both extremely culturally rich languages) and Anglo-Saxon means it is hard to beat in terms of its vocabulary and phrasal variation. The rise of colonies that use it as their first language has also given another huge addition to English. There's simply no way Korean can compete with this, even with its links to Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian.
You really don't have to be a bilingual genius to work that one out. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| hugekebab wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| hugekebab wrote: |
| exit86 wrote: |
My earlier point (using silly examples) was not that the Korean
language lacks a variety of expressions, but that such a variety of expressions are infrequently employed in common parlance.
Many regions have different expressions associated directly with them; but, in a land where most folks outside of Seoul are ashamed of their home region, many people tend to omit such verbal idiosyncrasies; and, further, in a culture replete with formalized social situations/interactions, there is a distinct tendency to use a (culturally) predetermined
set of terms or expressions.
(This ain't my theory folks. Read up on Korean liguistics now and then and you'll see what I am talking about.) |
You are really just saying that Korean is not as idiomatic as English; you seem to be under the impression that this is a profound and surprising observation, but it's a pretty cursory one, especially when made in a forum filled with language teachers (hence some of the nasty replies that I don't think you deserve.) |
Funny, if you ask a room full of Koreans - Koreans who don't speak English fluently that is - they'll tell you Korean has so many more words and expressions for different things than English. And they'll be just as wrong as you lot, fluent bilinguals and language experts that you all are. |
English does have a well deserved reputation for having a fearsome lexicon and variation due to the stupendous amount of authors who have contributed to it over the ages as well as its widespread use as a trading/colonial language. The fact that it is comprised of Latin/Latin based languages, Ancient Greek (both extremely culturally rich languages) and Anglo-Saxon means it is hard to beat in terms of its vocabulary and phrasal variation. The rise of colonies that use it as their first language has also given another huge addition to English. There's simply no way Korean can compete with this, even with its links to Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian.
You really don't have to be a bilingual genius to work that one out. |
You do, on the other hand, have to possess a grain of sense to know that when you are not fluent in someone else's language you should probably refrain from making sweeping generalizations about it because you don't know what you're talking about.
And, by the way:
| Quote: |
| English does have a well deserved reputation for having a fearsome lexicon and variation |
?
A reputation among whom? I have heard of this reputation from native speakers numerous times but have yet to have its existence confirmed by any non native speaker. Non native speakers do not wax poetic over how wonderful the range of English vocabulary is. After all, they're non native speakers so what would they know about it?
When your group has a reputation that exists only within your group, it's not a reputation: it's a myth your group likes to believe about itself. This is regardless of the fact that English does as a matter of fact have a very large wordstore. It's the reputation that doesn't exist, not the vocabulary (the bulk of which, however, is comprised of words that no one has ever heard of).
| Quote: |
| due to the stupendous amount of authors who have contributed to it over the ages as well as its widespread use as a trading/colonial language. The fact that it is comprised of Latin/Latin based languages, Ancient Greek (both extremely culturally rich languages) and Anglo-Saxon means it is hard to beat in terms of its vocabulary and phrasal variation. |
This is often pointed out as if it were something unique to English. It is not. What about Dutch? What about German? What about Swedish, Danish, Polish, and Russian? Latin and Ancient Greek are the common heritage of most European languages and are combined in a rich mix with Germanic, Slavic, or otherwise non-related tongues in many cases. European countries also all have rich literatures, long histories of trade, and quite often past colonies.
| Quote: |
| The rise of colonies that use it as their first language has also given another huge addition to English. |
This is quite often said but without much evidence to back it up. Google loanwords in English divided into lists by country of origin and the lists from former colonies are quite short. You could claim with much less exaggeration that the variations in idiom and vocabulary found among native speaker countries that were formerly colonies - America, Australia, Ireland, etc - have enriched the language, but somehow these countries always get left out.
| Quote: |
| There's simply no way Korean can compete with this, even with its links to Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian. |
How would you know? How would anyone who isn't fluent know?
And the fact that you put Japanese and Mongolian up there in the same sentence as Chinese - with its enormous influence on Korean vocabulary - shows you don't know much. |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/mostwords
On another note, yes I know that most European languages have been influenced by Latin and A.Greek, I was just noting how that has added significantly to the lexicon.
Your argument that one needs to be bilingual to know which language has the most words is insane; are you suggesting that a bilingual person would get his clicker out and start counting each and every word? Of course, the only way to answer this question is by research, and even the quickest of research brings up the clear and definitive answer that I am right and you are wrong.
Last edited by hugekebab on Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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"And the fact that you put Japanese and Mongolian up there in the same sentence as Chinese - with its enormous influence on Korean vocabulary - shows you don't know much."
Wow you really think you had a GOTCHA! on me there didn't you?
Korean is a member of the Altaic language family. Which is northern Asian in origin, Mongolian is a part of that group so I'm not quite sure how you would argue against that? I have actually read a fair bit on this; I'm not just making this shit up as I go along.
It's grammatically related to Japanese (though not derivative of it) and yes I do know that around half of the Korean lexicon consists of Chinese loan words. I am learning Korean and my girlfriend here with me is Cantonese and I have had first hand experience of her being able to understand a lot of the vocabulary here (seeing as first hand experience seems to be so important to you for some reason.)
Your post is pretty aggressive by the way. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| A quick Google search will reveal that English has a massive vocabulary. No linguistics background necessary. |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Even a quick scan of dicitionary sizes, Chinese versus English gives some indication:
The Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171476 words in current use, and 47156 obsolete words
The number of Chinese characters contained in the Kangxi dictionary is approximately 47,035, although a large number of these are rarely used variants accumulated throughout history...Studies carried out in China have shown that full literacy in the Chinese language requires a knowledge of only between three and four thousand characters.
If we follow this logically with this quote from a Korean language site:
"The vocabulary of "pure" Korean words is rather small (I've seen estimates that around 70 percent are of Chinese origin). A fairly large number of words are actually "loan words" adopted from other languages during Korea's long history of cultural contact with other nations. The majority of these loan-words are of Chinese origin, often called Sino-Korean words, a reflection of the Chinese cultural influence on Korea. As a result, the Korean language uses a dual system of native and Sino-Korean words, including two sets of numerals which are interchangeable in some cases, but mutually exclusive in others. Native Korean words are significantly outnumbered by Sino-Korean words, a situation by no means unique to Korea."
So if more than half of Korean words are Chinese, and Chinese has much less than half the amount of English words, and we take into considersation the 'rather small' pure Korean lexicon, anyone who has done GCSE maths can tell you English has a far bigger lexicon.
How would you argue against this, besides calling me out again for not being bilingual? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| hugekebab wrote: |
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/mostwords
On another note, yes I know that most European languages have been influenced by Latin and A.Greek, I was just noting how that has added significantly to the lexicon.
Your argument that one needs to be bilingual to know which language has the most words is insane; are you suggesting that a bilingual person would get his clicker out and start counting each and every word? Of course, the only way to answer this question is by research, and even the quickest of research brings up the clear and definitive answer that I am right and you are wrong. |
Straw man.
My argument is not that one needs to be bilingual to know which language has the most words. Why do you think I already said in my post that English has a huge vocabulary? It's this perception by English speakers that Korean speakers are restricted in some way by the paucity of the available vocabulary that I object to. You can find an equally presumptuous and ignorant assumption among Korean speakers that English is 'boring' because they can't say the things they want to say in Korean in English.
What we have here is people who don't know another language very well judging it inferior - less rich in expressiveness somehow - because they can't find equivalents in it for the words they would naturally use in their own language. If you actually become fluent in the language you find either that it does have equivalents after all, or that you use different expressions altogether that have no equivalent in your first language - or you might find that you were right to begin with only now you know, instead of merely assume.
So my argument is let's not prejudge the richness of another language before we know what we're talking about. And I think you'll agree that word-count alone is much too simplistic a measure to determine something like richness of expression. |
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