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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
To the current posters looking on: there seems to be a lot of anger and jealousy (anger + jealousy = flamebait) over the fact that someone has an opinion that you don�t want them to be able to express.
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You are upset that I have held my own rather impressively over about a dozen of you for the past twenty pages � an achievement that none of you have the ability to ever match, no matter how hard you try. |
Or, no. This has been a legendary thumping. It has been quite fun to read. I really don't care what some random dude thinks about the Holocaust. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think anyone has any problems with people holding and sharing an opinion that is supported by evidence; regardless of how objectionable that opinion may be.
But it is maddeningly frustrating when revisionist's flimsy evidence is washed aside and contradictory evidence that handily overwhelms your argument is either ignored, obfuscated or irrationally questioned.
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| but frankly there is no one here who has said anything of value in several pages |
Mothra just drowned you with information; both immediately pertinent and contextually appropriate. Instead of addressing his myriad facts, you questioned whether he's had "this discussion" before. That was really transparent.
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| You are upset that I have held my own rather impressively over about a dozen of you for the past twenty pages |
When it came to discussing the evidence that you presented, and evidence that contradicted your claim, this couldn't be more wrong. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| l. You are upset that I have held my own rather impressively over about a dozen of you for the past twenty pages � an achievement that none of you have the ability to ever match, no matter how hard you try. . |
I agree. Most of us have the dignify not to so impressively humilate ourselves. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| Were you taught... |
I will make a contribution to this "debate." I was taught to search out the evidence and read it. What were you taught?
Here is but one deposition from the war-crimes trials...
| SS Sturmbannfuhrer W. Hoettl wrote: |
At the end of August 1944 I was talking to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Adolf Eichmann, whom I had known since 1938. The conservation took place in my home in Budapest.
He expressed his conviction that Germany had now lost the war and that he, personally, had no further chance. He knew that he would be considered one of the main war criminals by the United Nations since he had millions of Jewish lives on his conscience. I asked him how many that was, to which he answered that although the number was a great Reich secret, he would tell me since I, as a historian, would be interested and that he would probably not return anyhow from his command in Rumania. He had, shortly before that, made a report to [H.] Himmler, as the latter wanted to know the exact number of Jews who had been killed. On the basis of this information he had obtained the following result:
Approximately four million Jews had been killed in the various extermination camps while an additional two million met death in other ways, the major part of which were shot by operational squads of the Security Police during the campaign against Russia [and presumably just before that, too, in Poland -- g.] |
Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression V (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1946), Document No. 2738-PS. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Finally, before the advent of the Holocaust-denial school (including all those here who "just want to ask questions"  ), Arab leaders weighed in on how some in the international community had linked the Holocaust to Zionism in Jerusalem and Palestine...
| The Alexandria Protocol 1944 wrote: |
| ...The Committee also declares that it is second to none in regretting the woes that have been inflicted upon the Jews of Europe by European dictatorial states. But the question of Jews should not be confused with Zionism, for there can be no greater injustice and aggression than solving the problem of the Jews of Europe by another injustice, that is, by inflicting injustice on the Palestine Arabs... |
It seems like these Arab heads-of-state had a persuasive argument then. And they might have better pressed it at the United Nations in 1947-1948. It seems like this represents a perfectly valid objection to the uses and abuses of the Holocaust re: Israel.
But I do not see anyone but NeoNazis, far-left shriekers such as N. Finkelstein, and simplistic demagogues such as Imadinnerjacket and Co. outright undermining or denying the Holocaust, Trevor. Why are you so easily led around by them? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher, I have never seen any evidence of Norman Finklestein denying the holocaust. I think he's very aware of the horrors of the holocaust. Both his parents were holocaust survivors. They both survived the Warsaw Ghetto. His mother survived the Majdanek concentration camp, as well as two slave labor camps and his father was sent to Auchwitz.
Please could you provide a link or cite a source for Finklestein's forays into holocaust denial? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps my writing is too complex. I listed two columns: (a) undermining and (b) denying. Finkelstein fits into the "undermining the Holocaust" column, denouncing it as "an industry," as you well know.
Also, I will not argue with you on this, either, given, for example, Finkelstein and your positions on Hezbollah -- not to mention Finkelstein's support of the NYU "corporate-water" occupational forces liberation front. Would be a fruitless discussion. Our politics fall very, very far apart on this...
Norman Finkelstein |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Perhaps my writing is too complex. I listed two columns: (a) undermining and (b) denying. Finkelstein fits into the "undermining the Holocaust" column, denouncing it as "an industry," as you well know.
Also, I will not argue with you on this, either, given, for example, Finkelstein and your positions on Hezbollah -- not to mention Finkelstein's emotional support of the NYU "corporate-water" occupational forces. Would be a fruitless discussion. Our politics fall very, very far apart on this...
Norman Finkelstein |
Please show me how he undermines the holocaust.
He doesn't call the holocaust itself the 'holocaust industry.' He is refering to the exploitation of the holocaust for political and financial gain. He is not the only descendent of holocaust survivors to share this distaste either:
Remove our grandmother`s name from the wall at Yad Vashem
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Following the example of Jean-Moise Braitberg, we ask that our grandmother`s name be removed from the wall at Yad Vashem. Her name is Gertrud Neumann. Your records state that she was born in Kattowitz on June 6, 1875 and died in Theresienstadt.
M. Braitberg delivers his request with excellent reasons and eloquent personal testimony. His words are inspiring, but they give you � and those who stand with you - too much credit. I will instead be brief. Please take this as an expression of my disgust and contempt for your state and all it represents.
Our grandmother was a victim of that very ideal of ethnic sovereignty in whose cause Israel has shed so much blood for so long. I was among the many Jews who thought nothing of embracing that ideal, despite the sufferings it had inflicted on our own race. It took thousands of Palestinian lives before, finally, I realized how foolish we had been.
Our complicity was despicable. I do not believe that the Jewish people, in whose name you have committed so many crimes with such outrageous complacency, can ever rid itself of the shame you have brought upon us. Nazi propaganda, for all its calumnies, never disgraced and corrupted the Jews; you have succeeded in this. You haven`t the courage to take responsibility for your own sadistic acts: with unparalleled insolence, you set yourself up as spokesmen for an entire race, as if our very existence endorsed your conduct. And you blacken our names not only by your acts, but by the lies, the coy evasions, the smirking arrogance and the infantile self-righteousness with which you embroider our history.
In the end, you will give the Palestinians some scrap of a state. You will never pay for your crimes and you will continue to preen yourself, to bask in your illusions of moral ascendancy. But between now and the end, you will kill and kill and kill, gaining nothing by your spoilt-brat brutality. In life, our grandmother suffered enough. Stop making her a party to this horror in her death.
Michael Neumann
I join my brother, Michael Neumann, in asking that any reference to our grandmother be removed from Yad Vashem, the Holocaust memorial.
I have been to this memorial. Its buildings, paved courtyards and plazas spread themselves authoritatively over many landscaped acres. It frames the Holocaust as a prelude to the creation of the state of Israel. It embalms memorabilia of the death camps and preserves them as national treasures. That treasure does not belong to Israel. It is a treasure only if it serves as a reminder never to permit any nation to claim an exemption for its chosen people from the bounds of morality and decency.
Israel has twisted the Holocaust into an excuse for perpetrating more holocausts. It has spent the treasure of the world`s sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust on a fruitless effort to shield itself from all criticism as it massacres and tortures Palestinians and suffocates them under a brutal occupation. I do not wish to have the memory of my grandmother enlisted in this misbegotten project.
I grew up believing that Jews were that ethnic group whose historical mission was to transcend ethnicity in a united front against Fascism. To be Jewish was to be anti-Fascist. Israel long ago woke me from my dogmatic slumber about the immutable relationship of Jews to Fascists. It has engineered a merger between the image of Jewish torturers and war criminals and that of emaciated concentration camp victims. I find this merger obscene. I want no part of it. You have forfeited the right to be the custodian of my grandmother�s memory. I do not wish Yad Vashem to be her memorial.
Osha Neumann
The Braitberg letter, in French can be found at
http://www.lemonde.fr/opinions/article/2009/01/28/effacez-le-nom-de-mon-grand-pere-a-yad-vashem_1147635_3232.html
and the translaton here:
http://www.bilin-village.org/english/articles/different-look/Erase-my-grandfather-s-name-at-Yad-Vashem
Michael Neumann is a professor of philosophy at a Canadian university. He is the author of What`s Left: Radical Politics and the Radical Psyche and The Case Against Israel. He also contributed the essay, `What is Anti-Semitism`, to CounterPunch`s book, The Politics of Anti-Semitism. He can be reached at [email protected]
Osha Neumann is a defense lawyer in Berkeley and author of Up Against the Wall MotherF**ker: a Memoir of the 60s with Notes for Next Time.
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Again, please show me how Finklestein undermines the holocaust. (I'd also be very curious to know my 'positions on Hezbollah'....) |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure you would. Actually, I could find no critical reviews of Finkelstein. The Academy is populated by people who raise their fists in support of him unfortunately. This is interesting, as we are probably reversing roles re: the discrimination, racism, and sexual-harassment industry in this discussion. Certainly seems to be the nature of "discourses."
Why are you spelling "the Holocaust" in small letters, by the way? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Why are you spelling "the Holocaust" in small letters, by the way? |
And Hezbollah with a capital "H". |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I meant that as an honest question, Mises. From the Cambridge Dictionary...
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| "A holocaust" a large amount of destruction, esp. by fire or heat, or the killing of large numbers of people. |
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| "The Holocaust" was the systematic murder of many people, esp. Jews, by the Nazis during World War II. |
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