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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if the posters who are trying to minimize the harm done by the Japanese Occupation also try to minimize the horrors done by the Nazis? Do they bring up that Hitler 'made the trains run on time', developed the autobahns and the Volkswagen? Do those things in any way justify or make up for invading all the neighbors?
I think the key issue for Koreans is the perceived humiliation of the loss of sovereignty. In this case, there is the added element of a 'junior' country seizing control of a 'senior' country.
It doesn't make any difference when the Japanese prohibited the use of Korean names/language. That it was done at all means it was an attempt to wipe out the identity of the Koreans. I'm sure everyone is aware of the discrimination faced by Korean-Japanese in Japan up to this day. Do you think that might be a clue to how the Japanese might have treated the Koreans in Korea? Wasn't there a mass slaughter of Koreans (and other foreigners) around 1920 because of an earthquake?
Like many of you, I get pretty frustrated with Koreans blaming Japan for everything negative here, (at least all the things they don't blame the Americans for). I've even been told that Koreans didn't beat their children before the Occupation. They didn't need to because Korean kids were well-behaved, but the Japanese brought in their awful education system in which beating was promoted. Of course it's all nonsense.
The politics of victimization may not appeal to outsiders, but it is a successful strategy for a small group to maintain an identity. Isn't that one of the effects of Jews remembering slavery in Egypt? Isn't it how Al Sharpton manages a political career? I'm sure some of you are rather sensitive when a Korean asks you, "Are you an American?" It offends your sense of identity as a Canadian or Australian or whatever.
Squabbling over the origin of a particular photograph is missing the point. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I wonder if the posters who are trying to minimize the harm done by the Japanese Occupation also try to minimize the horrors done by the Nazis? Do they bring up that Hitler 'made the trains run on time', developed the autobahns and the Volkswagen? Do those things in any way justify or make up for invading all the neighbors |
Actually, there is credible evidence that the German economy improved considerabley under the Nazi government. Historians recognise that too. |
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tokki
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
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| 5 million people slaughtered. Im sure there is no need to manufacture fake photos. The numbers I gave give you the context. |
Are you saying that 5 million Koreans were killed by the Japanese?! That's absolute nonsense. tokki, you need to open a book and get a real education. |
Listen junior, either oou are trying to bend what Im saying or well you are a .... wont attack you personally, I already got warned. Read my source. PEOPLE, including Koreans but not only.
The Japanese were EVIL. That isnt up to debate. 5 million people died because the Japanese wanted an empire. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| Actually, when revisionist history is politically driven it sickens me to the stomach, and I'm talking about both sides. |
so, is apolitical historical analysis going to take place before or after pigs fly? by saying "revisionist history" in the same breath as "politcally driven" - not only is that semantically overstated but you're assuming that there is "honest" or "non-revisionist" history which *isnt* politically motivated.
"revionist history" is one of the most abused and politcally-loaded quips in the english language. its basically a way of telling people "i dont like what you're saying, so im going to slam your analysis as crazy-talk from never never land and look intelligent at the same time by smearing you as 'revionist'" |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ohahakehte wrote: |
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| Actually, when revisionist history is politically driven it sickens me to the stomach, and I'm talking about both sides. |
so, is apolitical historical analysis going to take place before or after pigs fly? by saying "revisionist history" in the same breath as "politcally driven" - not only is that semantically overstated but you're assuming that there is "honest" or "non-revisionist" history which *isnt* politically motivated. |
And I guess this isn't semantically overstated? |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The Japanese were EVIL. That isnt up to debate. 5 million people died because the Japanese wanted an empire. |
I agree ...so were the Brits..more deaths during their little run of Empire building.
So were the Nazi's during their run of Empire building....
So were/are Americans especially during the formation of the country....
So were the Spanish during their empire building....Aztecs and Mayans nearly wiped out completely .....
Pol Pot had a pretty good tally during his run also.
I don't think anyone is minimizing the pictures...however as mentioned before they are NOT all koreans most of the pictures are from the hideous episode in Nanking....THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE IT ANY WAY.
What we must remember is technology has allowed us to see the atrocities. Sad fact also...some conquerers leave behind some good residuals......From the Romans to the Japanese it is true. Does it excuse the brutality...the atrocities....no it doesn't.
A horrific and sad fact is that despite the foul nature of the Nazis there was alot of medical advances made because of their disgusting experimentation....does it excuse it....OF COURSE NOT....but you cannot deny it either. I don't advocate this as a way to make advances...but again it is a sad tragic fact of history.
To deny it is to be naive. Again, before you get your self righteousness worked up too much. Please read what I wrote carefully....NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would condon these actions or atrocities...but to pretend for some reason the Japanese win on the atrocity scale is simply foolish.
Jade |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| tokki wrote: |
| Listen junior, either oou are trying to bend what Im saying or well you are a .... wont attack you personally, I already got warned. Read my source. PEOPLE, including Koreans but not only. |
You would fare far better if you went from threatening and insulting people for their opinion and instead simply try to support your own without theatrics being your sole support.
Your "sources" are usually as inflamatory as you. Unsupported and insulting rather than facts.
| Quote: |
| The Japanese were EVIL. That isnt up to debate. 5 million people died because the Japanese wanted an empire. |
Evil you say? Explain how please. When they took over Korea, it was an examble of humanity and serving the greater good, for example. They came in to save Korea from being overrun by the Russians who probably would have made them into a slave labour force and they saved the Korean people from their corrupt government and failed country that makes North Korea today a literal "worker's paradise" in comparison. They cleaned things up, gave rights to the people, education to the children, and food to the families. By the 1940s when things went loopy due to WW2, Koreans were treated the same as Japanese citizens in Japan, and in some cases better.
Plus when factoring in the number of people killed, the vote tallies were always done by the victors with no body counts. In some places in China were attrocities were accused, deaths are suspected to have been inflated by as much as a thousand percent for the purpose of garnishing a larger cash settlement.
You want to talk about evil? Break out the Mongolians and their lovely leader Khan who would wipe out entire cities if anyone dared to rise up against them. Entire cities were wiped out by them and he personally lead the armies that set back Asia centuries in development. A lovely policy they eventually developed was to disembowel everyone to make sure they didn't swallow any valuables prior to their offer to surrender.
You've taken what the Japanese did and made it personal, and now have attempted to inflate the facts to support your manufactured belief. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Evil you say? Explain how please. When they took over Korea, it was an examble of humanity and serving the greater good, for example. They came in to save Korea from being overrun by the Russians who probably would have made them into a slave labour force and they saved the Korean people from their corrupt government and failed country that makes North Korea today a literal "worker's paradise" in comparison. |
Japan, through military action, having decidedly put an end to Russia's expansion in the Far East a mere few years before Japan's annexation of Korea, how do you figure that? |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
Evil you say? Explain how please. When they took over Korea, it was an examble of humanity and serving the greater good, for example. They came in to save Korea from being overrun by the Russians who probably would have made them into a slave labour force and they saved the Korean people from their corrupt government and failed country that makes North Korea today a literal "worker's paradise" in comparison. They cleaned things up, gave rights to the people, education to the children, and food to the families. By the 1940s when things went loopy due to WW2, Koreans were treated the same as Japanese citizens in Japan, and in some cases better. |
I have said exactly the same thing to countless bigoted, and misinformed Koreans for an age. The Japanese were extremely resourceful. They not only defended their own sovereignty (from Russia), but they also helped transform Korea from nineteenth century backwater to global player. Of course, after WW2 the US took the baton. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Gord wrote: |
| Evil you say? Explain how please. When they took over Korea, it was an examble of humanity and serving the greater good, for example. They came in to save Korea from being overrun by the Russians who probably would have made them into a slave labour force and they saved the Korean people from their corrupt government and failed country that makes North Korea today a literal "worker's paradise" in comparison. |
Japan, through military action, having decidedly put an end to Russia's expansion in the Far East a mere few years before Japan's annexation of Korea, how do you figure that? |
Wrong. Read your history. In 1903 the Russians refused to sign an agreement with the Japanese which assured them of their interests in the region. The same agreement would have assured the Russians of their own interests in Manchuria. You also overlook the power of the Russian army in later years. As was said in another post. If it wasn't the Japanese, it would have been Tsarist, then later, Red Russia. The Japanese/Russian war ended without a clear winner. The Japanese were left in a near bankrupt position as a result. Coupled with the fact that the Russian army far outstripped the size of the Japnese army isn't it obvious why they felt insecure? |
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tokki
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:41 am Post subject: |
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Gord,
5 million people.
5 000 000 people.
Dead.
Slaughtered.
In the name of Japanese expensionism.
Im insulting? Um, I dont think I ever called anyone names in this thread. If I did, I apologize.
It seems to me that you are insulted by the facts. They dont fit in your fantasy of the pure and good Japanese.
5 million dead. A conservative estimate at that.
Need I repeat it?FIVE FREAKING MILLION.
Argue these numbers Gord. If you cant then you lose. Because either they killed off this huge number of people or they didnt. Of they didnt, then they are good. If they did, then they are evil.
It takes an EVIL group of people to kill 5 million people.
Yeah, they Japanese were very clever and resourceful. One has to be to kill 5 MILLION PEOPLE.
This thread is useless anyway. Defending the Japanese is like defending Hitler. Hitler did some good things too. He helped to modernize the economy. Too bad he slaughtered MILLIONS. Just like the Japanese. For the same reasons too.
Evil. Plain evil. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
so, is apolitical historical analysis going to take place before or after pigs fly? by saying "revisionist history" in the same breath as "politcally driven" - not only is that semantically overstated but you're assuming that there is "honest" or "non-revisionist" history which *isnt* politically motivated.
"revionist history" is one of the most abused and politcally-loaded quips in the english language. its basically a way of telling people "i dont like what you're saying, so im going to slam your analysis as crazy-talk from never never land and look intelligent at the same time by smearing you as 'revionist'" |
I'm not interested in an argument with you, perhaps if I discard the term 'revisionist' and simply go with 'politically driven history writing' you would feel better. And yes I do believe there are people out there who pursue hisorical research for purely academic non political reasons. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Kiwiboy, your post reminds me of something I see in the newspapers often here. Korea is angry that China has started including the area north of North Korea in their history textbooks as way back it was a Korean empire that held it. So they hire loads of 'scholars' to do 'research' on the area, and meanwhile China does the same. Or with Korea vs. Japan on their various land claims. It's funny how these 'scholars' get hired for one purpose only, to prove that their country's claim to something or somewhere is stronger than another, and usually the side with the most evidence gets the upper hand. It reminds me of a big lawsuit where each side nitpicks the evidence the other side has brought in and tries to bring down their case. There's a real need for objectivity when it comes to history. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| tokki wrote: |
Gord,
5 million people.
5 000 000 people.
Dead.
Slaughtered.
In the name of Japanese expensionism. |
In the context of people killed by Japanese soldiers or while serving in voluntary/forced labour support of the empire, the sites you've already linked to insclude estimates are almost half that, and even then Japan contests that the number is that is too high. Plus those numbers include anyone who died regardless of the reason.
Japanese losses were around the same level, ironically thanks in part to the bombing of civilians by Americans.
| Quote: |
Im insulting? Um, I dont think I ever called anyone names in this thread. If I did, I apologize.
It seems to me that you are insulted by the facts. They dont fit in your fantasy of the pure and good Japanese. |
What facts? "Here's a picture! It's proof!" Zuh? "Here's a number! The site says it's a guess at best! It's proof!" Zuh? "Japan is evil! You can see it in their eyes!" Zuh? "Japan was in Korea, it's proof they were evil!" Zuh?
Every "fact" you have provided is entirely circumstantial, insinuated, fiction, or guesswork.
| Quote: |
| 5 million dead. A conservative estimate at that. |
Conservative was nearly half that according to the very sites you've been linking to, and that assuming we choose to disregard claims of the Japanese that many of the deaths did not occur and were fabricated to gain financial compensation. Have you not read the very sites that you say support your opinion?
| Quote: |
Need I repeat it?FIVE FREAKING MILLION.
Argue these numbers Gord. If you cant then you lose. Because either they killed off this huge number of people or they didnt. Of they didnt, then they are good. If they did, then they are evil.
It takes an EVIL group of people to kill 5 million people. |
In World War 1, Germany, Austia-Hungary, Turkey and Bulgaria managed to kill more than 5 million allied troops. It's not as though Japan even made the top spot in the 20th century.
Though in WW2, Germany kicked Japans ass in terms of the number killed to make Japan look like a rank amateur. Russia lost more people than the entire population of Korea if you want to compare "evil".
Ironically, the Americans rocked up a storm in WW2, managing to kill more than 5 million people who were on Team Axis(tm). Because they killed 5 million people they must be evil?
| Quote: |
| Yeah, they Japanese were very clever and resourceful. One has to be to kill 5 MILLION PEOPLE. |
Throwing insults around does not improve the foundation of your opinion. We are not schoolchildren scared by someone raising their voice.
| Quote: |
| This thread is useless anyway. Defending the Japanese is like defending Hitler. Hitler did some good things too. He helped to modernize the economy. Too bad he slaughtered MILLIONS. Just like the Japanese. For the same reasons too. |
For the same reasons? The Japanese wanted to create a master Aryan race? I don't believe you've thought your position through.
I wheep for the voluntary ignorance that encompasses your world. A person chartered with the task of opening the minds of children should not have closed their's so forcefully that it can never again be opened. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| I'm not interested in an argument with you, perhaps if I discard the term 'revisionist' and simply go with 'politically driven history writing' you would feel better. And yes I do believe there are people out there who pursue hisorical research for purely academic non political reasons. |
i agree that there are people who pursue research for purely academic reasons, sometimes not even that, sometimes just for money. but its an impossibility that anyone approaches an issue free of ideology or prejudice. the best anyone can hope for is to be up front and honest with one's biases. im certainly a hundred times less suspicious of someone if they state right out that "i am from x school of thought...i believe that bla bla bla" vs someone who claims to be a "dispassionate third party observer" of an issue. the frontline of ideology wars is people who bicker over who is more detached and informed. |
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