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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I love how she still can't drive to work, or get a ride to work with a male who's not a relative.
Oh well, at least Saddam can't repress his people any more. Good the the Yanks and Brits liberated all the women there. |
Actually, Saddam (despicable though he was) presided over a secular society in which women had better rights than most others in the muslim world. In fact, things have gone backwards since the occupation as backward religious groups have come to prominence and stifled the freedom of women. |
Um, that was rather my point (the one the Kuros failed to see). |
Your point was that the repression of women in Saudi Arabia is George W. Bush's fault?
Objection. Asinine. |
My point is that when it comes to improving the rights of 50% of people he tried to re-colonise the wrong country. |
Alright. So the humanitarian justification for the invasion of Iraq wasn't the best one. But I'm still grateful Bush didn't invade Saudi, because that would've been a *bleeping* nightmare. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I guess the "skin off the nose" regarding the tents muslim girls are forced to wear doesn't come from grumpy eslcafe posters, but the girls themselves:
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Muslim girls who don't wear the hijab all the time are beaten, says Gerd Fleischer, of Self-Help for Immigrants and Refugees (Seif).
"In my office, women cried brave tears over having to go with a hijab. Countless young women despairingly told me that [if] they don't have the hijab on all the time, they'll get a beating."
"These don't dare appear in the public debate," Fleischer told V�rt Land.
She's upset that young Muslim women say they are free to choose if they want to go with a hijab.
She says that the proud educated women who appear with the hijab, know too that their sisters are coerced. But they speak little of it. Fleischer says it should be part of their women's liberation to also support them. The coercion many women experience, is barely mentioned as an aside.
She says young girls have to move to other places in the country and live in secret addresses, also because they don't want to go with a hijab.
"Parents often beat their daughters into obedience and virtue and the hijab as a rule constitutes part of the control," says Fleischer.
She agree with Progress Party (Frp) head Siv Jensen that the women's movement of the left in Norway doesn't care about non-Western women. |
http://europenews.dk/en/node/20590
Oh, but it is a personal choice, and not all are beaten into wearing it, though all do know the punishment.
Ha. Norway!! Good god, what the hell are these people thinking importing this. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I love how she still can't drive to work, or get a ride to work with a male who's not a relative.
Oh well, at least Saddam can't repress his people any more. Good the the Yanks and Brits liberated all the women there. |
Actually, Saddam (despicable though he was) presided over a secular society in which women had better rights than most others in the muslim world. In fact, things have gone backwards since the occupation as backward religious groups have come to prominence and stifled the freedom of women. |
Big Bird,
Please focus your apologism on Saudi Arabia, which is the topic of this thread. You know. |
I find that on this forum 'apologism for muslims' can generally be defined as 'not overly hysterical about them.'
If you think I have any love of Wahhibism you couldn't be more wrong. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Let's hope she's not just for show.
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Hope all you want Big Bird, but that's what she is. |
I certainly won't hold my breath. It's going to take generations for things to progress (to the extent we enjoy in the West) in that part of the world. It's in the grip of one of the most fundamentalist variants of Islam that you could imagine.
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| There does seem to be a quiet revolution going on in Saudi Arabia, behind the scenes. I hope it eventually produces tangible progress. |
Uh what? What else gives you this idea? |
a) A very interesting documentary I watched last year, about this very topic.
b) Discussions I've had with Saudis over the last 4 years. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
b) Discussions I've had with Saudis over the last 4 years. |
I know right? I had this discussion with Ken Lay a few years back about how his firm was doing accounting right. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
b) Discussions I've had with Saudis over the last 4 years. |
I know right? I had this discussion with Ken Lay a few years back about how his firm was doing accounting right. |
I have met many Saudis in the past 4 years, mostly as fellow students or through Saudi students. I have been to parties (where only women attend) and there I have had some frank and interesting discussions with well travelled and well educated Saudi women (some who have spent many years living abroad). They report that they have seen changes for the better.
The strict Wahhabi police exist precisely because not all Saudi Arabians adhere to the rules willingly. If everyone was happy to follow the rules, they wouldn't have a job, would they? There are different thoughts and opinions among Saudis, just as any other people.
I see variation in attitudes with the different Saudi men I meet. I can tell you that they are not all wicked misogynists. And I can glean this too from my discussions with female friends. For example, in my regular talks with another mother (who invites me to parties and likes me to bring my kids round to play with hers) with whom I just discuss day to day things (we've never discussed politics or gender politics) I learnt things like: her husband advised her that it would be a good idea to learn to drive the week they arrived here, and so with his gentle encouragement she did so, and now she drives to and fro from the uni (unescorted and unveiled). Her father encouraged her to study and when she had a baby, he helped care for the baby so that she could attend lectures and study. And other things that come up from time to time in general give me clues that she has a happy relationship with the men in her life. There are Saudi men out there who would be receptive to better rights for their sisters, mothers, daughters and wives. |
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