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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Is it wrong for the South to give them fuel and fertilizer? |
LMB halted that for the first time in years despite the temper-tantrums of the North. Good.
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| The NK govt will eventually fall, either by military force(not likely) or by decay. |
Not giving them aid will undoubtedly speed up the process. They're pretty decadent now, so they shouldn't have much further to go.
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| Either way will mean the death of many more people. |
Who would be to blame?
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| How are we to know that the tourism revenue isn't funneled directly into Kim Jong Il's baby torture machine program? We don't. |
That's the point.
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| How do we know whether the impact of having progressively more foreigners slowly allowed into NK for short trips is having an impact on opening this closed society? We don't. |
A tourist isn't gonna be hanging out with the locals singing Kumbaya in a po jang ma cha. Tourism is seen purely as a revenue stream to assist in supporting the state.
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| To say that anyone who visits the North is evil and knowingly supports the repression of NK citizens is a lazy way out of thinking about how nations can change. NK is a baby(50 some years) in terms of its government's age. None of our homelands were perfect from the get go. I hope there is a day when the people of NK will look back on this period in their history and see that huge changes for the better have taken place. |
Way to misrepresent what the more level-headed people here have been saying. I don't think those who want to travel to NK as a tourist are evil, I just think they are either silly, ignorant, naive or perhaps just plain wierd. In some cases, I suspect all those adjectives would apply. |
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NQP
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Is it wrong for the South to give them fuel and fertilizer? |
LMB halted that for the first time in years despite the temper-tantrums of the North. Good.
| Quote: |
| The NK govt will eventually fall, either by military force(not likely) or by decay. |
Not giving them aid will undoubtedly speed up the process. They're pretty decadent now, so they shouldn't have much further to go.
| Quote: |
| Either way will mean the death of many more people. |
Who would be to blame?
| Quote: |
| How are we to know that the tourism revenue isn't funneled directly into Kim Jong Il's baby torture machine program? We don't. |
That's the point.
| Quote: |
| How do we know whether the impact of having progressively more foreigners slowly allowed into NK for short trips is having an impact on opening this closed society? We don't. |
A tourist isn't gonna be hanging out with the locals singing Kumbaya in a po jang ma cha. Tourism is seen purely as a revenue stream to assist in supporting the state.
| Quote: |
| To say that anyone who visits the North is evil and knowingly supports the repression of NK citizens is a lazy way out of thinking about how nations can change. NK is a baby(50 some years) in terms of its government's age. None of our homelands were perfect from the get go. I hope there is a day when the people of NK will look back on this period in their history and see that huge changes for the better have taken place. |
Way to misrepresent what the more level-headed people here have been saying. I don't think those who want to travel to NK as a tourist are evil, I just think they are either silly, ignorant, naive or perhaps just plain wierd. In some cases, I suspect all those adjectives would apply. |
My point is that change has to start somewhere. I'm not saying that the tourists get to interact with locals, but increasing numbers of them being allowed in is a sign that the north could be opening up. Yeah it is for the money, that is why all governments promote tourism. When they learn what we believe to be true, that an open and free society actually produces more wealth and prosperity than a crazy and closed one, things will change even more. They are dealing with a crumbling cult of personality. Many of the people themselves probably actually believe the stuff they're told. They would have to or the system wouldn't still be hanging on. I mean even the USSR crumbled. NK is still at it.
Giving them aid or not giving them aid will cause death. Who are you to say which will cause more or less. Do you wear clothing or shoes made in foreign lands that use child workers and exploit employees? Probably, everyone has at some point. Do you lay awake at night worrying about the harm that may have caused? It is fine to say you wouldn't do it for whatever reason, but a bit obnoxious to declare that your way is the only way. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I was going to say yeah, I'd go, but three million won? That's too much. And hasn't tourism been stopped because of Kim Jong Il's stroke? I heard that on the news, I think. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
This is of course leaving out any ethical questions of helping prolong a corrupt, bloodthirsty regime that is butchering and starving people . |
But you have no problems with USA!??
Dropped bombs on Japan which killed its people and caused deformed babies for decades later! Or dropping Napalm on Vietnam!!??
AMERICA the land of the FREE!! Where they don�t even provide free health care for its citizen!! But demand 30-50% in taxes!!
You would rather give your hard earned money to that regime you mean?
You mean those thieves who went over to Iraq and slaughtered its leaders and innocent people for OIL!! You mean those guys??
You mean the country which sells weapons to the same people it fights!??
Jesus dude you are f*&$#king delusional if you buy into the propaganda which the American press is spewing about North Korea!!
Im still waiting to hear what North Korea has done to the international community?? |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| michaelambling wrote: |
I'm disappointed in your naivet� and insensitivity. If you think Cuba and Myranmar are as bad as North Korea, you surely don't have all of the facts. |
Burma is pretty bad. They also request you do not spend your tourist dollars there. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Kriminy, I am a double-post machine today! How do you spell "kriminy"?
Last edited by aboxofchocolates on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
[
Way to misrepresent what the more level-headed people here have been saying. I don't think those who want to travel to NK as a tourist are evil, I just think they are either silly, ignorant, naive or perhaps just plain wierd. In some cases, I suspect all those adjectives would apply. |
kind of reminds of the 40year old man having a mid life crisis and goes out and buys a sports car and gets an ear ring! and then you see him hanging out in the clubs hitting on 20 year old girls!! |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:08 am Post subject: |
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But you have no problems with USA!??
Dropped bombs on Japan which killed its people and caused deformed babies for decades later! Or dropping Napalm on Vietnam!!??
AMERICA the land of the FREE!! Where they don�t even provide free health care for its citizen!! But demand 30-50% in taxes!!
You would rather give your hard earned money to that regime you mean?
You mean those thieves who went over to Iraq and slaughtered its leaders and innocent people for OIL!! You mean those guys??
You mean the country which sells weapons to the same people it fights!??
Jesus dude you are f*&$#king delusional if you buy into the propaganda which the American press is spewing about North Korea!!
Im still waiting to hear what North Korea has done to the international community?? |
Rant much? You already slagged my native country Canada and now you are whining and bitching like a little girl about The USA. So where pray tell do you hail from Itaewonguy? Please enlighten me. Also, perhaps you might want to calm down a bit. At your age you may have a heart attack if you get too excited. |
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Jake.K
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
I am sure you had a great experience Big Mac. Just consider, the money that you spent in part went to KJI. He used that money to buy a bullet to put into the skull of a mother that tried to escape from one of those generational concentration camps because she couldn't get enough food to even feed her own child.
However, keep those fond memories.
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That is just going overboard.
I'm sure you don't eat meat Guri guy. I mean how could you, knowing that tortured animals were slaughtered just to serve your thirst for meat?
I'm sure you only consume fair trade chocolate and coffee. I mean how could you, knowing about the child laborers in Ivory cost?
I'm sure you only shop from sweatshop-free clothing lines. I mean how could you, knowing that a child in Bangladesh pierced her fingers with sewing machine needle to make your shirt for 25 cents an hour?
I respect people who live according to their values and beliefs. But having your beliefs and condemning others is different. Why don't you keep your beliefs to yourself and respect that others will have their opinion too?
It's cool if you think going to NK is supporting an odious evil regime, but you don't have to go around making people feel bad about going there. |
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Kimchi Cha Cha
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: was Suncheon, now Brisbane
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| If you were planning on going to North Korea anytime soon you can forget about it now. The North have completely closed the border trapping 500-odd South Koreans in Kaeseong in the process. Things are about to get interesting and I think the North are beyond just talk now, though I definitely believe they've bitten off more than they can chew. |
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Spike
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:07 am Post subject: |
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I went on the Kaesong tour and thought it was a brilliant experience. Very surreal. Worth every cent. And I got a chance to buy some kick-ass NK propoganda stamps and postcards
Didn't bother with the mountain as I was told by numerous people that it wasn't worth it. Just another mountain. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| michaelambling wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
Yeah, go to NK on an absurdly over-priced tour. That way your money will go to supporting KJI's lascivious lifestyle as well as the Nork troops who have their weapons pointed at the South. Great idea.
Wait until the despicable regime falls and is replaced by something less disgusting, THEN travel to NK. Any non-Korean going on these tours is moral retard. |
It's difficult to disagree with this. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms4NIB6xroc |
Awesome link, michaelambling. Definitely worth a watch for potential tourists. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| The issue is not whether this is an evil regime. The issue is whether tourism is what's enabling it, and it doesn't. It the millions of dollars in cash and food that flows in, in the form of foreign aid. |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| The issue is not whether this is an evil regime. The issue is whether tourism is what's enabling it, and it doesn't. It the millions of dollars in cash and food that flows in, in the form of foreign aid. |
On the contrary, those tourism dollars are going into North Korean coffers and being used to keep their people in utter subjugation. You'd have be delusional to believe otherwise. Where the hell do you think that money goes?
If people want to go to North Korea, that's their problem. I know I couldn't live with myself if I went there on vacation. I have too much respect for Korean people to do it. I am frankly saddened that so many people feel otherwise. |
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samd
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
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| The issue is not whether this is an evil regime. The issue is whether tourism is what's enabling it, and it doesn't. It the millions of dollars in cash and food that flows in, in the form of foreign aid. |
On the contrary, those tourism dollars are going into North Korean coffers and being used to keep their people in utter subjugation. You'd have be delusional to believe otherwise. Where the hell do you think that money goes?
If people want to go to North Korea, that's their problem. I know I couldn't live with myself if I went there on vacation. I have too much respect for Korean people to do it. I am frankly saddened that so many people feel otherwise. |
Yeah, your respect for Koreans is evident in every post you make. |
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