Korean Job Discussion Forums

[JMO]

[ManintheMiddle]

JMO:

Er-no-nationalism as patriotism need not be dangerous if informed. I'm damn proud to be an American. The difference is that I acknowledge my country's faults and limits. Can the same be said for those in the Chinese government?

Sorry to shatter your illusion of world citizenship.

All politics is local.

[mnhnhyouh]

[Kuros]

[Gopher]

Yes, Kuros. Critics will say that "we" in this context only includes some while excluding many. Therefore it is unjust, etc., etc., etc.

[ManintheMiddle]

mnhnhyouh:

I will defer to Gopher on this one. I can't improve on his response to you and your ilk.

Now, on to things that matter:

Here is the latest development in the Sino-American standoff:

[Gopher]

I am glad you mentioned the American sphere-of-influence (which includes only the Caribbean and Central America and not the entire western hemisphere). Beijing is looking to claim and hold a Chinese sphere-of-influence into the western Pacific -- how far out they intend to go, or whether they also intend to extend into the Indian, is anyone's guess at this point.

Some here not only apologize for but openly dream of the day when Beijing actually establishes this, and perhaps even moves to influence world affairs even more decisively. But this is hypocrisy. How can one so bitterly denounce "the American Empire" while cheering what Beijing is doing and likely intends to do into the future? Also, what kinds of freedoms (freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc.) not to mention environmental concern and protectionism do they think they would enjoy under Chinese hegemony? Just how long do they think Beijing will tolerate their unrestrained, hyperbolic, muckraking style of dissent?

Can one even get full access to the internet or the outside world and all its information from within China or the Chinese sphere...?

[RJjr]

If it would've happened off the American coast, I would be pissed at the Chinese. Since it happened off the Chinese coast, I can see their point of view and am mostly upset about the wasted tax dollars of looking for subs in areas where they aren't a threat to our national security.

The irony is that we have to borrow money from China in order to spy on them.

Bottom line: The US government wouldn't have gone to war with China even if they had sank our boat. Even though it's in the best interest of the American people for America to stop borrowing money from China, our government is addicted to Chinese loans and isn't going to do anything to jeopardize that.

[Gopher]

I believe this incident occurred in international and not coastal waters and that this is not even in dispute. So it clearly did not occur off the Chinese coast; it occurred in the South China Sea -- similar to the Caribbean or the Gulf of Mexico, for example.

By the way, do not take the Chinese govt's rhetoric and actions at face-value here. They do not practice as they preach any more than anyone else in world affairs. For one thing, they have reportedly run Cold-War-style election and propaganda operations in addition to the usual passive intelligence-gathering operations in the United States and Canada for some time.

People should simply stop looking at the Chinese through rose-colored glasses: they are aiming to establish themselves as the East-Asian/western Pacific superpower in world affairs, to do what imperial Japan failed to do through violent means in the 1930s and 1940s, just as we did in the eastern Pacific and Caribbean in the 1890s through 1930s. Beijing wants its place in the sun.

My position on all of this: we should recognize this place in the sun, welcome them in as friends, withdraw, and keep it that way. Let someone else police those sea lines of communication and deal with politico-economic problems in that part of the world, especially including Pyongyang and Taipei. We can still rely on a pro-American or at least anti-Chinese Japan to pressure Beijing here and there on this or that, if needed...

[Kuros]

[Gopher]

That is true today and into the near future. Things may change in the intermediate and long-term future, however, and that is why I would recommend bringing Beijing into the fold as a partner and friend now.

[JMO]

[Gopher]

[mnhnhyouh]

I think the major problem in this thread is the lack of positional information in the quoted articles, and the lack of explanation on why the two sides disagree on the status of the location.

Is the actual location not agreed upon (which given the state of gps means somebody is lying).

Or is the status of the location disputed, with the U.S. claiming the location is in international waters and the Chinese claiming that the location is in the Chinese Economic Zone?

My reading of the posted articles gives me no information to descriminate between them.

h

[Gopher]