|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
 Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:30 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Generally you can tell how impartial a person is by their willingness to do some research and bring up new facts that they might never have seen before. Also, asking questions while stating facts. If a person doesn't have these qualities they are likely to be biased... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
From my reading, I'd say that someone who says he/she is from 'x school' of thought is the LEAST likely to be trustworthy. They are, however, open about their agenda. That is useful, especially in discounting what they say.
I still value the attempt to be objective, as long as they make a fair attempt at displaying their evidence one way or the other. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| From my reading, I'd say that someone who says he/she is from 'x school' of thought is the LEAST likely to be trustworthy. They are, however, open about their agenda. That is useful, especially in discounting what they say. |
yes, but when you're accustomed to so many orwellian spinjobs you appreciate a perspective that is honest. so many people that claim to be "not politically motivated", "dispassionate", "detached", "honest" bla bla bla are just liars. maybe the problem is with me, i should just recognize that many commentators are just liars and move on to something else. as soon as i read someone who claims to be any of the above, my grain of salt becomes huge and ill pick them apart even more |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| the frontline of ideology wars is people who bicker over who is more detached and informed. |
It's possible to tell who is more informed by the data and sourses and footnoting they do. As for detached, you can get a reasonable idea about that if for instance, they refrain from interpreting events and keep their language descriptive of events, as opposed to positing motives, making judgements, using emotive language. There are good history scholars out there, though they are few. And btw, the truly impartial historian will never feel the need to point out "I'm impartial", as they usually have faith that their work speaks for it's self. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tokki
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Japan contests that the number is that is too high. Plus those numbers include anyone who died regardless of the reason. |
Some peoplecontest that Auschowitz was built by communists after the war to make Hitler look bad. Ofcourse Japan contests the numbers. Evil people have a problem with the truth. Japan has never come to terms with its past, they are still in denial.
| Quote: |
| One of the articles quoted is by Shudo Higashinakano, Professor of Intellectual History, Asia University, Tokyo who denies the Nanking attrocities and typically turns the discussion to the atom bomb and the view that Japan was a victim not an instigator of war. |
http://histclo.hispeed.com/essay/war/ww2/after/jap/w2ja-wcmcc.html
Also, in case you cant read, the reasons are given. They arernt just deaths regardless of the reason.
| Quote: |
| Japanese losses were around the same level, ironically thanks in part to the bombing of civilians by Americans. |
Good.
| Quote: |
| Every "fact" you have provided is entirely circumstantial, insinuated, fiction, or guesswork. |
Whereas YOU have yet to give any facts Gordo.
| Quote: |
| disregard claims of the Japanese that many of the deaths did not occur and were fabricated to gain financial compensation. |
Claims about fabricated deaths....where have I heard that before? I think from Japan's ally Germany...I know where we can stick any Japanese claims. As I sai, evil people disregard the truth and deny it. Cause it makes them look more evil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tokki wrote: |
| Some peoplecontest that Auschowitz was built by communists after the war to make Hitler look bad. Ofcourse Japan contests the numbers. Evil people have a problem with the truth. Japan has never come to terms with its past, they are still in denial. |
You keep saying "evil" in the hopes no one would contest you because defending evil is wrong. Plus Japan has apologized to everyone many times over and paid out untold riches in reparations. They only issue are things like Nanking when they are accused of huge crimes without evidence.
| Quote: |
| One of the articles quoted is by Shudo Higashinakano, Professor of Intellectual History, Asia University, Tokyo who denies the Nanking attrocities and typically turns the discussion to the atom bomb and the view that Japan was a victim not an instigator of war. |
Oddly enough, imminiate danger is a valid defence. It was used as justification in invading both Iraq and Afghanistan, and when people shoot people in public places. Japan showed up in Korea to head off the Russians who were threatening them. Japan attacked America after America took steps to stop their fuel supplies while at the same time began building a larger navy and publicly spoke about how they were going to slap down Japan. Hong Kong was part of Britian, and Britian was on the same team as America in WW2. And so forth and so forth, though I'm sure you'll try to counter this argument with "this little country was alone", to which I'll reply "but they were in the path and could have been used by someone else". It's easy to sit back now and go "Japan was evil", but when reflecting upon what the facts were at the time, it's pretty hard to damn them when America does the exact same thing now and other countries have done it before without getting the "evil" label you love to slap on Japan.
| Quote: |
| Also, in case you cant read, the reasons are given. |
Why are you insulting me with your grade school level English?
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Japanese losses were around the same level, ironically thanks in part to the bombing of civilians by Americans. |
Good. |
Why it is you are taking great pleasure in the killing of civilians in Japan at a rate far higher than killing of civilians done by Japan? Yet Japan gets the evil tag while our side gets the hero tag?
| Quote: |
| Whereas YOU have yet to give any facts Gordo. |
I'm sorry, I didn't realize linking to outside sources like you and citing examples with explanations as to the meaning didn't count as giving facts. Or is a fact only legit when you agree with it, regardless if it's true or not?
| Quote: |
| Claims about fabricated deaths....where have I heard that before? I think from Japan's ally Germany...I know where we can stick any Japanese claims. As I sai, evil people disregard the truth and deny it. Cause it makes them look more evil. |
It's accepted that the numbers were heavily inflated both at the time to enlist American support in joining the war against Japan, and after the war in terms of trying to get money from Japan.
Example:
| Quote: |
| Higashinakano Shudo, a professor of intellectual history at Asia University, asserts that the burial record of the Chung Shan Tang was concocted for the tribunal. He also questions the credibility of the record given by the other charitable organization, the Red Swastika Society, asserting that of the recorded 40,000 bodies, only 13,000 to 15,000 were authentic. |
| Quote: |
| ...the massacre of 300,000 or even 200,000 people simply looks implausible since those missionaries, who incessantly protested against the orgy of murders, looting, rapes and arson by the Japanese troops, did not record any drastic population drops as a result of the atrocities. |
| Quote: |
| In his research Sun calculated that the size of Nanking Defense Army was about 150,000 as opposed to the 50,000 troops previously believed. |
And so forth. The only proof about the number of deaths in Nanking show a much lower level than claimed by the Chinese, and they were primarily soldiers. China's claimed is pretty much based on "well, people claimed to have buried that many people, so it must be true. They would never lie to make money as we were paying people for each bodied buried." China was the most corrupt society in the world at the time. Why bill for one when you can bill for one hundred? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tokki
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| China's claimed is pretty much based on |
Why are you chiming in with your grade school level English Gordo?
| Quote: |
| Why it is you are taking great pleasure in the killing of civilians in Japan at a rate far higher than killing of civilians done by Japan? Yet Japan gets the evil tag while our side gets the hero tag? |
Aggressors deserve what they get Gordo. Karma, my man, KARMA.
| Quote: |
| Higashinakano Shudo, a professor of intellectual history at Asia University, asserts that the burial record of the Chung Shan Tang was concocted for the tribunal |
THIS JUST IN, a Japanese guy denying Japanese attrocities. This should make it on CNN and the BBC Gordo, its bigger news than the Iraq hoopla. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tokki wrote: |
| Why are you chiming in with your grade school level English Gordo? |
I was commenting on the insult towards me you were using, not your general grammar level.
| Quote: |
| Aggressors deserve what they get Gordo. Karma, my man, KARMA. |
So the murder of civilians in Nanking is ok because they were of the same country as the Chinese army? I ask because the average Japanese citizen had very little to nothing at all to do with what Japan's military was doing in the world.
Or would someone walking up and killing someone on this forum here who is an American be alright because they were an American and America has been quite the aggressor as of late?
| Quote: |
| THIS JUST IN, a Japanese guy denying Japanese attrocities. This should make it on CNN and the BBC Gordo, its bigger news than the Iraq hoopla. |
His nationality has nothing to do with the facts that only a fraction of the number of bodies claimed to have been killed by the Japanese were recorded, and more than half of them were either fraud (death by other causes either before the invasion or during) or the same body submitted twice.
There is no evidence that the deaths were on the scale China claimed. The only evidence suggests it happened on a much smaller scale and that most of the fatalities with military.
China has basically said they saw a flying pink elephant with a lovely hat. They won't or can't prove they saw it, and we can't prove it doesn't exist. All we can simply go over the documentation and facts known to be true that demonstrates the unlikelyhood they saw a flying pink elephant. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
harri2002
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Location: Earth
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
gord,
japan started the whole thing: brutal colonization of korea, mass murder
of the chinese (nanking massacre), attacked peal harbor and maimed and
tortured innocent civilians of asia. if you think about all the people who
perished because of japanese atrocities, you couldn't so easily excuse
them from all the pain they caused. over the years, i learned that
koreans aren't the only ones who hate japan so much because of what
they did before. chinese and philippinas hate them too. i saw on this
documentary about the philippines during WWII, and this one guy said he
will never forgive the japanese for brutally killing his brother with a
machete. also, this one japanese doctor confessed that when he was in
the japanese army during WWII he raped and killed by DISEMBOWELING
chinese girls and women from the ages of 8 to 80. yes, that is ages 8 to
80 years. now, that is evil. to quote george bush, "if this isn't evil, evil
has no meaning". i once worked for a jewish-american lady and she
hates japanese till this day because she was in pearl harbor when the
japanese attacked and she barely survived when her relatives died.
you'd think she would hate hitler more but if you saw her tell me how the
japanese are "evil", you'd see how much she loathes them. yes, people
die in wars but japan deliberately initiated pain and suffering on other
countries first. yes, many many japanese people died from the atomic
bomb, but since they started the whole thing they kind of deserved it. if
the bomb weren't dropped many many more people from other asian
countries other than japan would have been brutally tortured and killed.
japan deserved the bomb after all the suffering they initiated in the lives
of innocent civilians in korean, china, phillippines, burma, indonesia,
hawaii, etc. we think the osama bin laden and his terrorist groups are
evil because he killed some 3000 civilians. it's the same logic, japan
massacred some 5,000,000 civilians and yet still doesn't face up to it. i
just want to laugh when they try to play the victim. it's only natural to be
offended when japanese talk about how people died because of the atom
bomb, they fold stupid origami to commemorate bomb victims, they
advertise how this girl sadako, so innocent, died because of americans
dropping the bomb, etc. they have no remorse for what they did to all
those koreans, chinese, etc which is why it's so natural for them to try to
cover it up by playing the victim of the atom bomb. japan deserved the
bomb after what they did to all those innocent civilians... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
it's only natural to be
offended when japanese talk about how people died because of the atom
bomb, they fold stupid origami to commemorate bomb victims, they
advertise how this girl sadako, so innocent, died because of americans
dropping the bomb, |
I, too, find Japan's maudlin "poor little us, big bad bomb" routine rather nauseating, especially when put forth by the nationalist crowd who don't give a damn about the many people victimized by their own beloved country.
The fact remains, though, that little Sadako, along with thousands of other people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki(including Korean workers brought to Japan against their will) had nothing to do with the atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese army. I don't really see how you can say that everyone there deserved to have an atom bomb dropped on their heads. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| harri2002 wrote: |
| japan started the whole thing: brutal colonization of korea, mass murder of the chinese (nanking massacre), attacked peal harbor and maimed and tortured innocent civilians of asia. if you think about all the people who perished because of japanese atrocities, you couldn't so easily excuse them from all the pain they caused. |
um, would that be the same pain and suffering inflicted by the japanese that the peace-loving americans and british didnt really have a problem with until japan made it known they wanted to control the seas of east asia the way america and britain controlled most of the world? you should read Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Norman Finkelstein : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859844421/qid=1074835771/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-0600464-5740623
theres a big part of the appendix at the back where he quotes hitler saying that america and britain should look in the mirror before they criticize him for invading and occupying eastern europe. hitler gives all kinds of figures of how many square km's of territory britain controls around the world and how much suffering their empire has inflicted on others. he says that the american conquest of the west and the destruction of the "red indians"' cultures where the defeated and starving tribes were relegated to crappy pieces of unarable land was the model he used for his conquest of the slavs in eastern europe. before we call the japanese or osama bin laden ugly we should look in the mirror |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| before we call the japanese or osama bin laden ugly we should look in the mirror |
Fair enough. But, the topic of this thread is whether or not the Koreans should be mad at the Japanese. However brutal the Americans and the British may have been, they were not the ones who colonized Korea. When Koreans reflect upon what they endured during the colonial period, you can't really expect them to say "well, I guess we shouldn't get so worked up about it, after all the Americans killed Indians". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| before we call the japanese or osama bin laden ugly we should look in the mirror |
Fair enough. But, the topic of this thread is whether or not the Koreans should be mad at the Japanese. However brutal the Americans and the British may have been, they were not the ones who colonized Korea. When Koreans reflect upon what they endured during the colonial period, you can't really expect them to say "well, I guess we shouldn't get so worked up about it, after all the Americans killed Indians". |
so? discussion threads always and rightly diverge somewhat.
my point is this: if justice has any meaning it has to be applied evenly and universally. its just jingoistic BS and totally blind to say that innocent japanese civilians deserved to have their faces melted off and their houses fried by nuclear bombs because their genocidal government was fucking east asia. its hypocrisy to talk of japanese aggression as if its an isolated phenomenon or completely foreign to our angelic (american, british, canadian, etc) natures.
and i encourage anyone, korean or not, to reflect on and get angry about the japanese occupation. but its another thing entirely to attempt to reflect with koreans and to blame this supposed common enemy of brutal slanty eyed kamikaze fighters as if they didnt learn a thing or two from our brutality. and as if anglo-american nations always act with altrustic intentions, or even ever for that matter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dan
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Sunny Glendale, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
all I know is most Koreans and gyopos don't have enough thick skin to deal with this board. Which is why most quit after awhile.
But I remain committed to not letting this board degrade into one big b*tch fest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| harri2002 wrote: |
| japan deserved the bomb after what they did to all those innocent civilians... |
Your conclusion demonstrates more clearly that you don't know what you're talking about than I could do in a multi-paragraph posting highlighting each and every fairytale and mistake you've mentioned. Ironic you should damn them for killing civilians, and now you openly post your happiness in the killing of their civilians. You have become what you sought to damn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
